New Mixed Use Project in Cameron Village

• Tony
  06/22 12:19 PM
  

  Well, I do like downtown progress, but that image depicts a structure that is the opposite of innovative. It’s so blah that it’d fit in well on Centennial Campus.

• lunarvision
  06/22 02:42 PM
  

  “blah” is putting it politely…close your eyes and steal my thunder with something like, “this image/rendering is mind-numbingly half-assed and bland.”

  Seriously, is this what downtown Raleigh is becoming, a second chance for the boring building designs of corporate parks and mid-80’s hospital add-ons?!?

• ChiefJoJo
  06/22 04:01 PM
  

  Well, first of all, it’s not downtown, it’s Cameron Village.  Second of all, it may not be the most innovative or attractive design, but at least it will bring some good urban form to an area that was designed primarily for cars, and not for people.  I would think that expanding urban form to areas outside of downtown—where it is sorely lacking—is something readers of this blog should support, instead of being so preoccupied with the intricacies of architectural design.

  Instead of the mild face lift that York undertook at CV in the last few years, I wish they would rebuild the area block by block, so that the retail frontage is right at the street instead of set back to accommodate car parking.  Despite it’s human scale, people still do not do a whole lot of walking around, and the suburban layout of CV only discourages that activity.  One of these days the land will be just too valuable to keep re-freshening the shops, and they will all give way to a nice low to mid-rise mixed use center.

• Steve
  06/22 05:18 PM
  

  I’ll be sad to see the Citgo and Village Motor Werks go.  From what I hear Pam and Greg at VMW have been looking over their shoulders for a while now. I hope with all the new development that we don’t lose out on places like that that. I’d hate to have to drive to the suburbs to find anything other than condos and retail.

  That being said, it’s nice to see the new development being proposed. If those 290 condos mean one less sprawing sub-divsion 20 miles from downtown, I’m all for it.

• DPK
  06/22 06:01 PM
  

  I really hope that the VMW guys find a good new home if/when they are pushed out.  They really helped me out when I was in a bind one time.  Pam is great!

• Betsy
  06/23 12:10 AM
  

  “The new structure could hold as much as 28,000 square feet of retail and 290 new residential units”

  ... and a 4 to 5 story parking deck?

  It’s not smart growth if everyone arrives and leaves in a car.

• Magnus
  06/23 02:00 AM
  

  How can something so devoid of character be billed as a “facelift”?

  *yawn*

• Jim
  06/23 01:32 PM
  

  “Second of all, it may not be the most innovative or attractive design, but at least it will bring some good urban form to an area that was designed primarily for cars, and not for people.”

  No direct offense intended, Chief, but I am increasingly tired of people granting carte blanche to developers to conceive of the most boring, cheap, uninspired drivel (from an architectural/form standpoint) in new area developments, especially those within or near downtown, just because they “are better than what used to be there,” a la North Hills.  I would hope that our standards are a little higher than that.

• kg
  06/23 02:51 PM
  

  I think I’ve seen that building before… yes, yes… I’m sure of it.

• georgia
  06/24 03:23 PM
  

  the new Blandonia look,. bookends to the oberlin rd projects?

• Katherine
  06/24 04:33 PM
  

  I agree with Mangus and kg… BORING! Raleigh’s turning everything into homogenous and snooty crap. Who is buying all these condos? Isn’t there a “community” just like this on Oberlin Rd/Wade Ave? Why not build affordable apartments with character or actaully renovate a building instead of tearing everything down?

• Tyler
  06/24 05:32 PM
  

  While the single image we have makes the building seem a little mundane… it is pretty consistent with Cline’s other work.

  It’s also one view, and a barely rendered watercolor at that.

• Jenna
  06/24 06:07 PM
  

  Katherine:

  Cameron Village is already awash in affordable apartments - they line Smallwood from Oberlin to Broughton HS. Even better are the affordable condos (Cameron Village Condos II) on Daniels - from Smallwood all the way to Wade. Cameron Village Condominiums are also abut the property - and offer the only 2 bedroom places under 200k anywhere in the area. Clearly, demand for affordable is already being met in that area.

  I’m excited about the additional retail. I regularly walk to and from Cameron Village. I’ll be ecstatic if the additional 28,000sf of retail provides the few things that are not already available on foot.

• Katherine
  06/24 09:16 PM
  

  Jenna you really sound like you are in real estate.
  I personally do not find 200k affordable, especially for an ugly-ass condo that looks exactly like every other condo that is currently being built in Raleigh. What is so wrong with making everything affordable? I think there is always a demand for affordable, it will never be met.
  I cannot imagine that the new retail space in Cameron Village will be anything but overpriced boutiques and restaurants. The rent for space at Cameron Village is outrageous. I can only assume that a brand new building will cost even more.
  I do agree that it is great to have a place to walk to where you can shop and eat or socialize. I also think that Raleigh should continue to build up and not out, but why does it all have to be condos and ugly, unimaginative ones at that? Raleigh is going to be just like Charlotte. Boring.

• lunarvision
  06/24 10:40 PM
  

  Right on, Katherine!!  I couldn’t agree more with your comments. 

  I’ve lived in Raleigh nearly all my life and there’s nothing wrong with demanding more of downtown.  Frankly, I’m tired of settling for these boring, over-priced developments just for the sake of “something new/something happening” downtown.  (And yes, I’m aware that Cameron Village isn’t technically “downtown”.)

  If we don’t raise our expectations - build up, not out; more affordable; engaging architecture; etc - it won’t be long before downtown mutates into a mini Charlotte - all dressed up and nowhere to go that’s unique.
  No more missed opportunities, folks!

• Michael
  06/25 04:42 PM
  

  The big bang that blasted Raleigh across 100 square miles of Wake County is turning into the big crunch and drawing all those soccer moms-in-waiting and their frat boy husbands back to its center. They’ll eat up anything that’s new and tall or flipped regardless of the lack of art or vision that goes into it. The story is old; those with money rarely have talent and those with talent rarely have money.

• Roberto
  06/26 01:55 AM
  

  I don’t think the drawings look good. Very boring. surely we can come up with something more interesting. I do think that time will take care of some of these issues. I think what will help is if stores stay open later than 5 or 6. many of the restaurants are open after that time, but many retail places are not. Really we are in an early period - there will not be success without population density and that wont come until there are reasons for folks to populate a particular area. So the Cameron Village changes might not be great - but I do think they are necessary steps for the next step of Cameron Village. Could the plans look better for Village Motor Werks space? You bet. And Pam *does* rock but then again so does Greg - anyone that can make you think of rock horror has to rock . Would be great to find a local spot for that shop to stay - unlikely with rent prices what they are - but i can hope.

• Carolyn
  06/26 02:21 PM
  

  Hah, you want innovative? It’d be nearly impossible to get a project thats even remotely “innovative” approved for Cameron Village/Oberlin Rd!  What with the history of the area and the overwhelmingly large contingent of not-in-my-back-yard-ers…

• David
  06/27 02:14 PM
  

  Hasn’t anyone ever noticed that most of Oberlin Road has only two lanes?  I don’t think that the current infrastructure will be able to sustain the kind of traffic that 290+ more cars will bring during the morning and evening rush hours in an already overly congested area.  Widening the road would mean destroying the last vestiges of one of Raleigh’s historical black neighborhoods, which I would personally never support.  It breaks my heart to see beautiful houses from the early part of the 20th century be torn down in order to accommodate the needs/greed of the upper-class.

• RaleighRob
  06/27 02:56 PM
  

  ^ There are no plans for any widenings on Oberlin, and hopefully they wouldn’t be needed.  Ideally, most of the new residents in that building would work no further than downtown or NCSU.  In such a case Clark and Woodburn would receive more cars than Oberlin would.  And the Oberlin/Hillsborough/Pullen intersection is already planned for a major upgrade eventually anyways.  True…some added congestion on the stretch of Oberlin between CV and Wade may occur.  But hopefully more spread out, and better timing on the stoplights could help as well.

• ChiefJoJo
  06/27 04:21 PM
  

  I make one more comment, and then leave this topic alone for now…  for every infill project that we reject, that’s one more reason for Joe Developer to throw up his hands and head to the hinterlands to build a big subdivision or strip mall (can you say Brier Creek?—ugh).  What I am not arguing is that we simply ignore standards for design and a development’s respect it’s surroundings.  I am saying that it’s essentially a zero sum game, and growth is coming this way, whether we like it or not.  Rather than say ‘I don’t want less-than-perfect infill or exurban sprawl’ it might be best to work with this developer to enhance/adjust the project so that it better fits with the surrounding community while still serving the growing market need for ITB housing and retail.

• Chris
  06/27 06:31 PM
  

  While I find this project to be disappointgly bland, as many of you seem to, I also have a concern about the height.  The drawing makes it look like a 9 or 10 story building, which will absolutely dominate everything else in the area (only a handful of buildings over 3 stories, and those being a good bit up Oberlin).  I’m for the project overall—while it is a shame to evict VMW, none of the existing buildings are anything special—but 290 units and 9+ stories seems awfully dense when compared to the surrounding area.  Indeed, Cameron Village is not downtown, and while a mixed-use infusion is a welcome addition, this just looks out of scale to me.  Plus, as already noted, carefully crafted to look like every other condo project going up in Raleigh recently.

• steve
  06/28 04:04 PM
  

  This truly is just a bunch of boxes maxing out the build-able area. The problem they are clad in the cheap beige synthetic stucco with styrofoam behind. This gives the quality of a cheap interstate hotel. Why can’t we get a better skin that will look better longer and appear lighter and play with the light. I know it costs more but on a site such as this it is important.

  It is also important to address the corner in a special way which this does not do. It is really a shame to see this cheap stuff going up. The modernist buildings from the 1960’s look much better and were built with brick all around which endures. Sure they could uses a little power washing. Do do that with these new plastic buildings.

  Also, with all this talk about green - who is asking those questions about this project. I realize this might make it unaffordable, but most developers want a quick return on investment in this country and don’t care about long term performance.

• Rusty
  06/29 12:24 AM
  

  The project is expected to achieve some level of LEED certification… it’s unclear at this point how the cladding will fit into the equation, but I think it’s still a little early for us to assume that it will be built cheaply. (LEED certification does take into account rapidly renewable, as well as long life-cycle materials.)

• Emily
  07/08 11:48 PM
  

  To say “Ideally, most of the new residents in that building would work no further than downtown or NCSU” (RaleighBob) sounds like the traffic pitch I heard at the meeting tonight. “Ideally” is not reality and certainly not worst case scenario which is what we all need to be concerned with when it comes to traffic impact on Oberlin and subsequently the streets that will become cut-through in our neighborhoods.  If you travel from Van Dyke to Oberlin on a regular basis you know that we already have congestion at that intersection. There have been many times when I’ve waited over 5 minutes to make a left hand turn on to Oberlin or on to Van Dyke.  Consider the new traffic from the Oberlin/Wade Ave project along with the CV plan and get ready for waiting five or more minutes to turn into your own driveway.  I didn’t hear anything at the meeting tonight that indicated any real concern for this problem.  I’m not sure what the answer is or if I need to be alarmed. Maybe the answers lie with the city and their plans for handling this added traffic.  But please, let’s not take “hopefully” and “ideally” lying down! We need some real answers here and I welcome comments from anyone who has studied this situation that doesn’t work for the developer.

• JZ
  07/16 12:00 PM
  

  Watched the council meeting last night and found a few good points made by the neighbors:  After public and private investment (time and energy) in studying density and scale for this area, and incorporating this understanding and effort into the comprehensive plan and the area plans surrounding and effecting this parcel, a) why is the developer not respecting these guidelines/regulations that are in place and, b) why is city council even entertaining this text change? 

  Well, we know the answer to both those questions, but my point is that we put regulations into place that reflect a contemporary, complex understanding of the dynamics of various neighborhoods and then deviate from these regulations the moment a developer cannot make his pro forma work.

  I want more density, we need more density and what one fellow who spoke last night reminded me was that Cameron Village is the ONLY walkable development in Raleigh where you can buy groceries, go to the Post Office, rent a movie, go out to eat, buy clothing or check a book out of the library.  Other than its exclusivity with the boutique shops of late, this is the place to be incorporating more density.  But lets make sure it transitions well with its lower density surroundings.

• ANav26
  07/17 04:17 AM
  

  I happen to live and work in Cameron Village, and I support the Clark/Oberlin project. If you look @ the sattelite photo you might want to consider the grading of the site. If you have ever walked from Cafe Carolina to the Citgo you’ll notice a pretty steep grade. If you continue to the corner of Oberlin & Clark it’s even steeper. I would consider the grading. If you put a 5 story building @ street level on Oberlin and a nine story building in the area behind Cafe Carolina the height of both buildings will be fairly similar. The 9 story building wouldn’t really have any affect on the skyline. As a resident of Cameron Village I would love to have more retail, more office space, and more building UP as opposed to OUT. I’m not a developer, realestate agent,bank rep, business owner, simply a tennant of Cameron Village Condos II.

• Cameron Village
  07/28 11:58 PM
  

  Cameron Village will likely continue being in the spotlight for some time.

  To read the latest, trade thoughts or just meet people, check out…

  http://www.myspace.com/cameronvillage

  This is your central Cameron Village Information Page. 

  I just created this (so pardon the lack of material) to keep citizens informed about what is happening in Cameron Village AND to create a forum where thoughts can be exchanged to productively produce a unifying vision for Cameron Village which can be heard at future Council meetings.

  Also, if you have any material you would like me to post, any thoughts or are interested in ways you can help Cameron Village grow please email me at .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

• Cameron Village
  07/29 12:00 AM
  

  ANAV26

  Please send me an email or join me if you are a MySpace member.  I am trying to have those who live, work or shop at Cameron Village join me so that our voices can be heard!

  Thanks!
  .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

• Enigma
  08/04 09:47 PM
  

  Having been a lurker for a while and reading through all the commments on this site and numerous others about this project, I’m curious about something.  Since there’s been a number of negative comments made about height, traffic, and exterior skin, I’m asking this.  If the magic fairy granted a wish making you the owner of Cameron Village, what exactly would you do to improve what’s there?  I hope the reponses will be reality based to some degree.  Voicing some examples and references to existing projects anywhere else would be interesting to hear, and quite possibly, helpful to the developer.

• Emily
  08/06 10:47 PM
  

  I appreciate your question and it’s a good one. First of all, the building that has been proposed doesn’t fit within the current zoning.  The reason the proposed project is 9 or so stories (above ground) is purely for economic reasons.  This is how big the building has to be according to the developer in order for it to be profitable.  Evidently, Regency, who owns that property, is demanding big bucks for this site.  I guess it’s easier to push this monster down the throats of the surrounding neighborhoods rather than negotiate a price for the property that can be profitable under current zoning.  Also, the building that Crescent has shown is not as large as the total envelope they are proposing for rezoning so there’s no guarantee they’ll build the building they are showing everyone. Secondly, the project doesn’t follow the Wade Oberlin Small Area Plan.  I’m told that a substantial community effort and investment of City resources went into the development of this plan. Is the city going to ignore these efforts for smarter growth?  Third, there’s a large concern about traffic impact on Oberlin Road.  The recently completed project at the corner of Wade and Oberlin and this project at Cameron could mean 800 more cars accessing Oberlin Road.  That means overflow traffic in Oberlin Village and University Park and even more un-pedestrian friendly streets in CV.  So, to answer your question about what this building should look like:
  1.It fits within current zoning guidelines
  2.It fits within the character of C.Village
  3.It has minimal traffic impact on Oberlin Road
  and surrounding areas.

  So, what can the developer build to meet these guidelines? Let’s start there.

• Enigma
  08/07 02:05 AM
  

  Dear Emily,
  My first thought was to interject some facts to counter your comments but decided against it, for now.  Instead, your last sentence seemed more to the point, so let’s start there.  Referencing previous comments by Jenna, she desires more convenience stores like a Target, Whole Foods, and a possibly a movie theater along with some non-burger restaurants.  Upon further thought I now agree with the opposition.  Let’s continue to protest the mixed-use Crescent redevelopment and gang together in support something to include all of Jenna’s wishes.  The fact is, all of those mentioned meet the current guidelines for Cameron Village without rezoning, so, as you say let’s start there! 
  Ps. I’ve heard Target has been dying to get their new two-story store into Cameron Village for a while now.

• William
  08/11 05:45 PM
  

  Cameron Village is supposed to be upscale and expensive, that’s why it’s ITB. If you want “affordable” housing try Durham or anywhere outside the beltline.

• JZ
  08/11 05:47 PM
  

  Now why did somebody have to go and say that?

• Enigma
  08/11 08:38 PM
  

  Cameron Village supports its high-end clientèle with high-end retailers.  If it didn’t, the shoppers would go elsewhere, and the retailers would shortly follow.  That fact isn’t something to be ashamed of or argue about.  Actually it’s a factor why most people choose to live in that area in the first place.  As with all successful downtowns or shopping centers, they must adapt and evolve over time to stay vibrant and successful.  The evolution of Cameron Village should include residential as the Crescent plan shows it, and lots more elsewhere in the other blocks.  It also needs more office space and possibly a boutique hotel, as outlined in the small area plan.  It needs enough office to allow the surrounding neighbors and the future residents the ability to walk to work.  After all that is complete, it will truly be a Village worthy of our collective protection.

• Bobbus
  09/04 01:58 PM
  

  Its unfortunate that this “bland” image is being circulated but there is method behind the madness. The architecture for this preliminary phase of approval is deliberately kept neutral. It is actually more of a massing sudy that intentionally does not want to dictate a “style” or architectural direction at this time. Eventually, once the program and concept is approved by the city and local neighbors interject their opinion of what it can be, then the client usually commits time and money on the exterior design of the building. Its just part of the typical process.

  Also, I cannot think of a better place to live in Raleigh than at Cameron Village, its about time for a project like this. Some people are talking about more cars and they are forgetting that if anything, there will be less need to use their car because everything you need is already at CV. Even if you don’t work at CV, its close enough to downtown where you could easily ride your bike.

• Mark
  09/04 06:25 PM
  

  I find the above comment to be very interesting insight. I do agree that it is unfortunate that this image is being circulated.

  I thought a massing study is one that shows form, proportion and scale. Not much more. This image shows clear direction in fenestration and materiality.

  The use of the term “exterior design,” to me, is vastly revealing. I prefer exterior decorating. Either way, what you are describing is applying ornament to (essentially) the shell of a building.

  I am in favor of a process that begins with a clear vision where all elements of the design are allowed to mature and develop along together, cohesively. Projecting community response is part of that process, something every intelligent designer is capable of. Producing “deliberately neutral” deliverables is, in my opinion, a huge cop out. 

  I would be interested to know some projects that Cline Design has completed where the finished building turned out to be greatly different from an original rendering, in the spirit that you’ve communicated. Or some examples of their work where the buildings didn’t turn out with the same “bland” brick and stucco ornament that the folks on this comment feed are concerned about.

  It appears to me that the principal concern of the “typical process” you’re describing is architecture as the business of making money. And that is never in the best interest of the future of our city.

• tommyboy
  09/04 07:13 PM
  

  Mark,

  Don’t be such a TOOLBAG!!

• Rusty
  09/04 08:23 PM
  

  The Google Earth images posted to the other article (here: http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive/cameron-village/) seem to be quite consistent with this preliminary sketch. However, their validity and accuracy seem a little dubious.

  I personally would prefer well-executed revivalism of some sort to mediocre modernism any day… and I think Raleigh, and more directly the community of Cameron Village deserve better.

  I don’t think anyone who has been in the practice of Architecture for more than a few days will make the argument that the “business side” and the “design side” of running a firm don’t clash with regularity. It’s a good Architect’s job to find that delicate balance. (Somewhere between going hungry and selling-out.)

  Not all clients are interested in Modernism in any way shape or form, but the most conservative client is still interested in good design.

• E-Rock
  09/05 11:07 AM
  

  My thoughts are that if the building is finished like the rendering then it will look way better than 222 Glenwood or the birthday cake on Wade Ave known as Oberlin Court.  This rendering is way above “typical” Raleigh standards.  Could it be better? Possibly. Did the developer force some design decisions? Probably.  Will it even get built once this thing hits the City Council and lawsuits from the surrounding neighbors like the Coker Towers fight?  Probably not.

• arthurb3
  10/07 12:50 PM
  

  FYI: people who live in Briar Creek think Crabtree Valley Mall is downtown!! Every retail space does not have to have condos above it! Not everyone wants to be awaken at 6am by trash trucks! The young people that would want to live there cant afford $300 for a 500sq ft apartment.

• Angel
  11/18 04:42 PM
  

  Boring! 

  Architects and designers should start thinking for themselves for a change and stop copying everything they see in the magazines that everyone in the field reads.  Am I crazy to think that almost every building rising up in Raleigh at this moment resembles the one on this rendering?

  Raleigh is being designed into a center for snobs; the city planners are under the impression that all we want to do when we go out is shop, eat and drink in expensive places.  We need more entertainment venues, as well as green areas with playgrounds, fountains, art, etc.  If we want an interesting city we need to let humbler players into the game: magazine stands, food stands, one day markets, etc.

• Greg Ashe
  08/07 02:05 PM
  

  GD Gearino of the News & Observer wrote an article about Village Motor Werks that was published April 2005. The following is a response from a reader of that article that I feel hit the nail on the head as regards new developments within the beltline. But before you read that text I would like to assure the kind people who were concerned about where VMW would go, that we are indeed still here! We’ve relocated to 234 South Boylan Avenue ( across the bridge entering Boylan Heights ) so come see us when you can.
  919 832 0899 .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
  Regards,
  Greg Ashe dba Village Motor Werks

  G.D. Gearino raised an important and timely issue in his April 12 column “Upscale but out of balance?” when he colorfully recounted the travails of an auto repair shop trying to survive inside the Beltline.

  There’s more to the dwindling of everyday services inside the Beltline than what kinds of businesses property owners want, though. The first problem is size: the current basic retail business model calls for enormous stores. We don’t have that many square feet downtown, so can retailers come up with a business model that’s profitable in fewer than a zillion square feet?

  The second problem is that specialty retail can generally pay higher rent than basic services. Property owners (especially absentee owners such as real estate investment trusts) demand the greatest return on their investment and aren’t required to offer a portion of their space at a rate that a basic service (auto repair, grocery, etc.) can afford.

  
  The danger isn’t, as Gearino said, having downtown turn into a “yuppie theme park.” The danger is that a downtown without basic services won’t support a resident population. It’s great to see all the condos going up and more people living here. But if we all have to drive to suburbia to stock up on everyday supplies, get our cars fixed and so on, there’s no point living in town.

  If the business owners, property owners and city government can’t find a way to keep a thriving set of basic services downtown, there’s a ton of investment poised to be lost.

  Bill Brideson

  Raleigh

  published Wed, Apr.27,2005 News & Observer

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