Dudes Wear Holsters At State This Week to Protest Lack of Guns

February, 09, 2009, by David

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ConcealedCampus.org site

Say goodbye to blazers with elbow patches and year-round flip flops. These guys see campus as a war zone.  Currently concealed weapons are not allowed on NC State’s campus but an organization’s representatives will be wearing empty holsters this week in protest.  Did it ever occur to them that empty holsters look like non-empty holsters? Makes sense that some vigilante justice would help in times of true crisis like Virginia Tech’s incident, but hormonal teens running around with guns on campus is not my idea of a safe environment. 

Ever seen the damage a couple of drunk frat boys can do without guns?  In any case it seems these kids are really scared,  really scared and carrying a gun is the only way to make them feel safe.  A reader points out that “The Delicate Art of the Rifle” was filmed at NCSU in 1996; how appropriate. 

The NCSU Chapter of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus has organized an empty holster event that will take place next week. The event will run from February 9th through the 13th, and is taking place on campuses in North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia.

We will be carrying empty holsters in plain view throughout the week. If you have any questions about concealed carry, concealed carry on campus, or have comments, we welcome them.

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus advocate Second Amendment Rights of citizens being honored on campus as they are already done so off of campus. If you feel the same, please join us in our empty holster event.








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  • kg
    02/09 05:03 PM

    i’m a gun advocate but let me say that i hope these holsters remain empty.

  • Rusty
    02/09 06:57 PM

    The balance between individual constitutional rights, and corporate rights is always a delicate one… but in the case of being on someone else’s property (which I believe State Campus qualifies as in this case) it seems like a non-issue. Despite being a “Public” school, I don’t think this qualifies legally as “Public Space.”

    I’d also venture to say, that being part of the UNC System, that any decision would likely go through the Board of Governors. Sounds like a non-issue to me.

  • Jason!
    02/09 07:24 PM

    Just dudes?  That doesn’t sound right.

  • Drew B
    02/09 07:30 PM

    Sound’s like a bunch of dudes with empty holsters, if you know what I’m saying…

    Just couldn’t pass that one up… But seriously all arguments for this seems like a case of finding a single case where it would be better to do what you want, and ignoring the hundreds of situations where the opposite would be better.

  • Michael P
    02/09 08:53 PM

    I feel for those scared little boys, do they need their mommy to walk them to class too?

  • corey3rd
    02/09 09:44 PM

    when I was at NC State, we used to carry around empty condoms to protest the lack of nookie.

  • Carl
    02/09 10:13 PM

    “when I was at NC State….”
    Hee -HAAAAAAAW !!!!

    Seriously, though.
    Are you that scared ?
    What are you going to pack when you leave Wake County ?

  • dt
    02/09 10:46 PM

    Students for Concealed Carry on Campus has to be the dumbest group I’ve ever heard of, god I hate State people, or at least, these people

  • Magnus
    02/09 11:34 PM

    The people who are against this must have really liked the Virginia Tech massacre and want to see it unfold again closer to home.

  • Robby Bullard
    02/10 01:37 AM

    I completely agree with corey3’s comment.. which is why i spend so much time at carolina.

  • Lisa Jeffries
    02/10 04:16 AM

    Since very few others feel the need to say it, I’m actually one for it. If I was still on campus, I would’ve considered wearing an empty holster, too. I think you’d be surprised how many females this also pertains to. Pretty disappointing this article got so little coverage, or at least concession of valid points, for both sides of the argument.

    But that’s just my $0.02.

  • RaleighRob
    02/10 09:17 AM

    Good gawd.  For every civilized, rational-thinking person who tries to do good at NCSU and works hard to shed that stereotype that we were a “Cow college full of rednecks”, there’s another person who just reinforces it.  Sigh.

    Seriously people….2nd Amendment?  Great and all.  But a college campus?  You’ve got to be kidding me.  Most college kids aren’t even responsible enough to stop texting in class or wear their pants above the crotch.  And you want to let them walk around campus with guns??  Just suggesting this makes me think you’re not level-headed enough to even get a nonconcealed one.

  • TSnow27604
    02/10 09:57 AM

    Wouldn’t “State” be state government property?  There are signs at all government buildings saying that you cannot carry a weapon inside.  And without any scientific research, I would have to think that students with handguns would lead to more incidents than it would dissuade.

  • Ken Metzger
    02/10 10:03 AM

    I’m sorry, but Magnus’s comment really pisses me off.  )Having attended Virginia Tech, albeit a short time, makes me a little more sensitive to this issue.)  People carrying concealed weapons does not mean that someone would of actually been able to prevent the Virgina Tech disaster.  If someone is carrying a gun and hears gunshots, what is their reaction going to be?  Probably would be to get out of harm’s way, not all of the sudden turn into John McClain.  If they were actually in the classroom, then they just become the first target for someone who is already prepared to murder.  I am not saying gun control laws would prevent it either, but do not use the lives of the unfortunate for your petty politics.  That goes for both sides of the issue.  Let us mourn the victims, not use them as ammunition in a divisive political issue.

  • CF
    02/10 10:18 AM

    Daddy, thars other peepul walkin’ round here.  i needs mah gun, Daddy.

  • Daryl Johnson
    02/10 06:38 PM

    I have a very strong sense of trust in the decency of human beings. I also recognize that darwinism is failing in the human race. I don’t have any violence in my life. I am a very trusting person. Statistically nothing bad will happen to me (too bad I have been robbed on multiple occasions, my property vandalized, and a gun pulled on me in Greensboro) and I have no fear of living my every day life.
    My gun is my good luck charm. When I carry it, nothing bad ever happens.

    The “youth, inexperience, and ego” of students is not a reasonable argument. To carry you have to be over 21. Not everyone comes to college immediately out of high school. I teach on campus, and I have people older than me taking my courses every semester. Some faculty would also like the right to carry, but are denied so under the current laws. Places of higher learning have crime problems. Why can I defend myself when I am on hillsborough street, but not when I cross into the courtyard of the Carolina’s? In real life, people have concealed weapons around them all the time.

    All of the comments against concealed carry on campus are arguing with emotions, and not a single shred of fact.  The facts:
    -SCCC promotes the second amendment rights of the people to be honored on campus as they are already done so off of campus.
    -You have to be 21 in order to get a concealed carry permit
    -Not all students are fresh out of high school.  Some served in the military, held jobs, and raised a family before coming to college.
    -Concealed carry occurs every day outside of campus, and there are not mass shootings everywhere. 
    -Criminals have guns.  When you enter a gun free zone as a law abiding citizen you have no way to protect yourself against people with guns.
    -The average response time is between 4-10 minutes once the police are called.  During that time, everyone is helpless.

    If you have comments for the NCSU chapter of SCCC you can send them to .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

  • spishak
    02/10 11:02 PM

    It is blatantly obvious that ‘no gun zones’ are targeted by those wishing to target as many victims as possible. If you appear as food, you will be eaten.
    Guns don’t just ‘go off’. Properly carried and operated, they are statistically less likely to kill you than your own physician.
    It is truly a shame and an outrage that individuals that have been thoroughly investigaged by the FBI, SBI, CCBI, etc. regarding their eligibility to carry a deadly are denied the right in some locations.
    Concealed Carry Weapons permit holders statistically commit fewer weapons violations than do sworn Law Enforcement Officers.
    Google this information and see for yourself.

    I refuse to spend my money in places where I am prohibited to carry my legally concealed weapon. I’ve been carrying for years now. My gun must truly be faulty because I haven’t gunned down a school bus. It hasn’t even once randomly discharged whilst being carried or locked in the safe.

    Let’s look at facts, and consider that criminals will very well decide not to target a campus occupied by students that will shoot back if threatened.

  • Crit
    02/10 11:35 PM

    “Makes sense that some vigilante justice would help in times of true crisis like Virginia Tech’s incident, but hormonal teens running around with guns on campus is not my idea of a safe environment.”

    For starters, the United States military trusts hundreds of thousands (or, in fact, millions) of ‘hormonal teens’ to run around with firearms a hundred times more dangerous than anything that can be carried concealed…but that’s besides the point.  North Carolina state laws requires that someone be of at least 21 years of age in order to apply for a concealed carry permit (along with needed training, having an extensive background check done, etc), so we’re not talking about ‘hormonal teens,’ anyways.

    Do the college students around you know in what low regard you hold them, by the way?  Are college students the educated elite that will someday run the world, or are they ‘hormonal teens’ that can’t be trusted with any pointy, lest they hurt themselves or run the streets red with blood?

    “In any case it seems these kids are really scared,  really scared and carrying a gun is the only way to make them feel safe.”

    The people that spend the time, effort, and money needed to get a concealed carry permit aren’t scared, they’re prepared.  The people who, if and when (God forbid) violence SHOULD break out on a college campus, cry and scream and hide under their desks because they’ve been disarmed, and have no effective way to fight back?  THEY’RE scared.

    Gun free zones didn’t stop Columbine, or Virginia Tech.  Gun-toting students DID stop a school shooter at Virginia’s Appalachia School of Law a few years prior to VTech, though, and law-abiding citizens bearing concealed weapons have stopped several other crazed shooters targeting everyday citizens. 

    The people who cower behind the “gun free zone” sign like it matters are the scared ones.  The people with a desire to carry a firearm—legally—to protect themselves and those around them?  They’re on the opposite end of the bravery spectrum, my friend.

  • CA
    02/10 11:46 PM

    Crit nailed it. The nanny-state mentality that has gripped our fair land is depressing - the founding fathers knew the value of a firearm as a tool to prevent unnecessary loss of life. I would suggest many here have not studied the world around them and are reacting based on feelings rather than fact.

    Gun free zones are simply targets. We either trust the people of this great country or we don’t - if you wish to live in a country where the government takes care of you and the violent minority colors how we judge all free men I’d suggest the USA isn’t (supposed to be) that place…

  • Magnus
    02/10 11:49 PM

    The ones you need to be scared of are going to pack heat whether you want to let them or not.

    It’s the honest law-abiding gun owners that are constrained here, not the crazies.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 12:29 AM

    why not just come out and say it - schools were safer in NC when they were segregated. Forget a gun-free zone - why not get back to minority-free school? They didn’t have metal detectors and drug dogs in local high schools when they were white only.

  • Kevin
    02/11 04:30 AM

    Oh noes! they are all gonna go crazy and start killin inoscent peeple!!1
    /sarcasm

  • Kevin
    02/11 04:35 AM

    When I went to NC State(for 6 years) I always carried concealed except for when in PE classes sometimes.

    “Judged by 6, or carried by 12?”

    Only YOU can make the decision as to your personal defense needs. Only YOU can protect yourself 100% of the time.

  • Jason!
    02/11 08:50 AM

    Why is concealed better than open carry?  Presumably, properly holstered firearms in open carry operate as a deterrent just by being there.  I don’t buy the “mugger sizing up his quarry” argument, and I don’t like not being given the choice of whether I want to be around someone with guns.

    And if CC is allowed, does that mean teachers get to make the choice of whether to allow guns in their classrooms?  Would any of you CC proponents respect that choice?  Do you now carry concealed into places that specifically prohibit guns?

    And of course, carrying an open carry holster around doesn’t really say much about concealed carry, but that’s really a minor point.

  • Crit
    02/11 09:37 AM

    Why is it you’re so afraid of the law-abiding citizens who’ve made a choice to go about carrying a weapon the legal, responsible, way?  Guns in and of themselves aren’t dangerous, only the people that choose to use them.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 09:52 AM

    “Only YOU can make the decision as to your personal defense needs. Only YOU can protect yourself 100% of the time.”

    Really? if somebody wants to kill you - they will kill you. You think that killer is going to stand around and give you a good aim? You turns corner and a bullet will take you out. 100% safe from what? Reality, maybe.

    JFK had lots of protection. Where was his 100%?

  • jesus
    02/11 10:18 AM

    Guns save lives and cut down on health care costs!

    http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/4514436/

    Oh.

  • Ken Metzger
    02/11 10:23 AM

    Crit,
    The statement “Gun-toting students DID stop a school shooter at Virginia’s Appalachia School of Law a few years prior to VTech” is completely false.  Three people were killed by the gunman and when he was apprehended he didn’t even have any more ammunition.

  • Jason!
    02/11 10:23 AM

    “Judged by 6, or carried by 12?“

    You got that backwards.  Carried by six or judged by twelve.

    Why is it you’re so afraid of the law-abiding citizens who’ve made a choice to go about carrying a weapon the legal, responsible, way?  Guns in and of themselves aren’t dangerous, only the people that choose to use them.

    Clearly that’s the case, but with concealed carry I don’t get to make the choice of where I feel safe with respect to who has a gun and who doesn’t. Open carry is fine by me, why the push for concealed?

  • Hank
    02/11 10:26 AM

    This boils down to fear mongering.  I am sure this group is backed by the gun lobbyist or NRA or some arm on that group. If not who is truly behind this…really????

    If you scare the shit out of people they will do drastic things like arm themselves or go to war.  Guns are not the answer guys.  Quit trying to scare people so you can sell more of your killing machines. 

    If everyone is so scared why don’t you build a wall around campus and put M-60s around the whole perimeter?  Tanks at every entrance.  Shit, have drones fly over the campus.  Then all the precious students will be protected.

  • James M
    02/11 11:01 AM

    Some of you people sound far more ignorant and intolerant than the people you are claiming to be ‘rednecks.’

    1. I am a 21 year old college student at ECU in Greenville, NC
    2. I have a gun.
    3. I’m licensed by the state of NC to carry concealed.
    3. I have teachers that piss me off.
    4. While I don’t drink often, I do occasionally.
    5. I take prescription meds. Mainly for my asthma, but I also have pain killers for the 2 herniated disks in my back.

    I do all of the above responsibly. I’ve had teacher’s get me pretty heated. However, being pissed doesn’t make me a murderer. Just because I’m upset at a teacher doesn’t mean that I want to physically harm them. When I do drink, I secure my gun. I have no intention to use my gun while I have been drinking and I never drink enough to not be in control of the situation.

    Anyone who is in college (and 21) CAN arm themselves. Simply because they can’t arm themselves while on campus, doesn’t mean that they can’t arm themselves at all other times. If I am 21 and chose to get a concealed carry permit, and I am considered mature and responsible enough to carry everywhere else during my day to day life, what is it about stepping onto a college campus that makes me all of a sudden too immature and irresponsible to carry.

    What about adult students? In almost every one of my classes there is at least 1 student that is older than the professor. Is a 40 year old too irresponsible to do what he has been doing for 20 years simply because he is a student?

    We are not advocating handing out guns like candygrams. We are hoping that people who are legally allowed to carry concealed everywhere else in the city, will be allowed to do so on campus.

    Do you think people that plan to come to campus and murder people are going to worry about the trespassing crimes they commit while doing it?

  • James M
    02/11 11:03 AM

    And to Hank, Students for Concealed Carry aren’t backed by the NRA. They are a group of students backed by students who undertstand the statistical information that states that allow people to carry concealed have significantly lower crime rates than those that don’t.

    Which city would you rather live in, Raleigh or New York?

  • David Fox
    02/11 11:16 AM

    I hope that these students, sometime soon, can exercise their natural right to self defense without fear of oppression by local law enforcement.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 11:22 AM

    Where hell do you live? Deadwood? Harlem? Tijuana?

    I was on the NC State campus for 7 years and not once did I have that “if only I had my gun” feeling.

    You kids today are worthless and weak. And pathetic. You need a gun to prove you’re somehow safe. If you don’t feel safe at NC State - then take get your college degree from an online university. You can feel extra safe with your 8 deadbolts and bars on the window.

  • j
    02/11 11:25 AM

    James M - Would you enlighten me on these statistics?

  • James M
    02/11 11:26 AM

    I’ve never once in my life had that, “if I only had my seatbelt” feeling, but I sure as hell put it on every time I get in my car, because you never know when the one time you might need it will be.

    Also, I find it hard to believe that you spent 6 years on NC states campus and still have such horrible grammar.

  • Hank
    02/11 11:30 AM

    “Which city would you rather live in, Raleigh or New York?”
    New York of course.  That is why I live here. 

    “I hope that these students, sometime soon, can exercise their natural right to self defense without fear of oppression by local law enforcement.”

    Take a self defense course ninja!  Guns are not natural.  And you are right the local law enforcement is trying to keep a bunch of privileged college going white kids down.

  • James M
    02/11 11:33 AM

    J, here is an excerpt from an article posted just last month.

    “...Statistics from the FBI’s Uniformed Crime Report of 2007 show that states with right-to-carry laws have a 30% lower homicide rate, 46% lower robbery, and 12% lower aggravated assault rate and a 22% lower overall violent crime rate than do states without such laws…”
    http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=30405

    Here is another site
    http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pdcrm/pdcrm20.htm

    The fact is, criminals prefer unarmed citizens. If someone wants to commit a mass murder, they are going to target somewhere that they know people don’t have guns. Virginia Tech, Columbine, Post Office shootings, etc.

  • James M
    02/11 11:36 AM

    Hank, you are self defeating. You are telling this guy to take a self defense class instead of carrying a gun, but in the same sentence you are making fun of him for taking a self defense class by calling him a ninja.

    Have you ever tried to use martial arts against a gun? I haven’t, but I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t turn out too well.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 11:37 AM

    I have had several moments when I’ve been thankful for wearing my seatbelt since three times I’ve been the victim of wrecks thanks to “very responsible drivers.”

    We didn’t care about grammar at NC State back then because we had a winning basketball team. Remember those?

    I’m really getting sick of today’s NC State students with their desire to lynch a black president. I bet those students were very responsible NC State students who are entitled to wear their guns while intimidating the black students on campus with their visions of nooses in the trees.

    When was the last time walking across the campus did you reach for your revolver? And was the person that intimidated you white?

    If a black frat walked around with empty holsters, you people would demanding the Chancellor stop them before they get their guns.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 11:41 AM

    It appears your protest about feeling safe with a concealed weapon in school has filtered down to junior high kids -

    YOUNGSVILLE, N.C. — Wake County school officials said a Zebulon Middle School student was shot on a school bus Wednesday morning.

    http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/4514436/

    Why shouldn’t this kid be able to take his gun to school and feel safe? And why shouldn’t the kid he shot feel good because as someone pointed out, concealed weapons lower medical costs.

  • CF
    02/11 11:41 AM

    Since there is also a minute chance that the campus could flood or be struck by lightning, perhaps students should also wear lightning rods on their heads and carry around canoes.

  • tc
    02/11 11:41 AM

    “The fact is, criminals prefer unarmed citizens.”

    Just curious, but if the weapon you’re carrying is concealed, how do criminals distinguish you from an “unarmed citizen”?

    “If someone wants to commit a mass murder, they are going to target somewhere that they know people don’t have guns. Virginia Tech, Columbine, Post Office shootings, etc.”

    V.Tech and Columbine were not targeted because of a lack of guns, but because of personal connections/grudges. 

    You’re confusing facts and opinions/assumptions.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 11:44 AM

    It’s all funny until the mystery bear that lives in the steam tunnels attacks this guy. Then he’ll have an excuse for his gun

  • Hank
    02/11 11:44 AM

    Self defeating?  How so?  No I call a lot of people ninja.  I
    don’t have guns or use martial arts.  I just prefer to live a peaceful existence and not carry heat. 

    I look at England and see a country were gun violence is much lower.  Most police do not carry guns.  We are an escalated country of hot heads. 

    You equate carrying a gun with safety.  I do not.  It’s that simple.  There should be no guns nears schools…period.  It is a place of learning.  Maybe we should have better security or something else.  But we do not need an arms race in our schools and universities.  We need EDUCATION!

  • Magnus
    02/11 11:48 AM

    The simple fact of the matter is this: I have the right to keep and bear arms. It says so, right there in the US Constitution as well as in our state Constitution. And as SCOTUS recently clarified, this is indeed an individual right and not a collective right.

    So if you don’t feel like you need to wear a gun, don’t.

    But keep your nose out of my business if I decide I need to carry.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 11:51 AM

    And does someone who sees your concealed weapon and fear your reaching for it, have the right to shoot you for their own protection?

  • Magnus
    02/11 11:52 AM

    When did I ever say anything about carrying concealed?  You need a permit to carry concealed in North Carolina.  You do not need a permit to carry openly.

  • Jason!
    02/11 11:53 AM

    James, those statistics only prove that increased gun ownership reduces crime, and that allowing Concealed Carry increases gun ownership.  Wider use of existing Open Carry laws could conceivably do the same (perhaps better, as visible guns are a visible deterrent). Why the push for Concealed Carry?

  • Jason!
    02/11 11:55 AM

    It may not be you, Mangus, but the name of the organization doing the protest is “Students for Concealed Carry”.  Right there in the name.  One person in this thread has even already admitted to carrying concealed illegally.  I’m all for Open Carry, so I don’t understand the protest myself.

  • Magnus
    02/11 11:58 AM

    Concealed carry, open carry, I just want to see more of both happening with fewer restrictions on where one can and cannot actually enjoy their civil liberties.

    If I were a college student today, I’d probably be packing on campus legally or not because my natural right to defend myself trumps any bad law.

    And the idea that you can shoot someone just because you see them carrying a holstered weapon… that’s just too absurd to dignify with a serious response.

  • James M
    02/11 12:01 PM

    Corey - I am glad that you were wearing your seatbelt when you needed it. I wasn’t saying that you never needed one. But you are actually confirming my point. You never need a seatbelt until you NEED one, and if you don’t have it on when you NEED it, it doesn’t you know good. I won’t need my gun until (hopefully never) I NEED it, but when I do need it, I’ll be thankful I have it. Why does this have to be about race? I am white. I live with a black guy. I have black friends with concealed carry licenses and I have never once thought that they shouldn’t have it because they are black. If someone chooses to go through the training and background checks to acquire a concealed carry license, it doesn’t matter what their race, gender, sexual preference, etc. have to do with anything? Also, in NC, when you turn 21 you have the right to buy handguns and acquired a concealed carry license. When you are in middle school, you don’t. That kid should have never had the gun to begin with because he isn’t old enough or responsible enough to have it. I believe that people who are 21 are old enough to own handguns, people who are 13 aren’t.

    TC - If a criminal thinks that a citizen is armed, they are less likely to attack, if they know that a citizen isn’t armed, what is stopping them? Do you really think that a “no handguns” sign is going to make them rethink their decision to murder people? At Virginia tech, Cho killed the first two people that he knew, the other 30 sum people that he shot were random. They just happened to be in the building when he decided to start shooting them. I don’t believe that he had a list of victims.

    Hank - Just because you chose to live a peaceful life, doesn’t mean that the people around you do. I sure hope that if someone tries to hurt you or your family, they will listen to you when you tell them that you are a peaceful person, and will respect your decision by not harming you. I agree that there should be no need for guns near schools. In a perfect world there would be no need for guns at all. However, since the bad guys have guns as a means to kill people, the good guys need them to defend themselves.

    To Everyone - I have to go to class now so I can’t continue this little chat at the moment. In the mean time, i sincerely hope that none of you ever end up in a situation where you are being harmed because you don’t have a way to defend yourself. A remember, there was NEVER a school shooting until AFTER anti gun zones were started on school campuses…look it up.

  • Magnus
    02/11 12:03 PM

    That kid in Zebulon broke all kinds of laws, as did his parents. Tougher laws are only going to hurt the people who obey them.

  • James M
    02/11 12:03 PM

    Corey - I wouldn’t reach for my concealed weapon unless I needed to alleviate a threat. That threat would more than likely be a threat to other people in there area who would also be drawing on that threat and not on each other.

    Jason - I occasionally open carry and absolutely support open carry.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 12:12 PM

    But James, if you’re arguing with me about something in the WalMart parking lot and your coat opens up and I see your shiny gun and I see your hand rising towards your gun - at what point am I allowed to pull out my gun and blast you in the face for my defense?

    At what point is the perceived threat worth wasting your life? What do you have to do to get shot by me? I really want to know at what point do I get to kill you and call it self-defense. How much intimidation must be visible before I should consider it a threat? We’re arguing about a parking space. You open up your man purse and reach inside - you thinking it’s for your cellphone, but I see that gun right near your hand. Do I get the right to get the jump on your ass and kill you?

    and are you going to hold it against me if I merely take out a chunk of your flesh?

  • j
    02/11 12:22 PM

    James M -

    I want to see the data. You pointed me to two conservative websites that presumably have an agenda.

    Both of these sites use as a cornerstone of their pro-concealment argument the results of a paper put out by John Lott at the U. of Chicago in the mid 90’s. Briefly, Lott found that in 10 states that moved from “may issue” to “shall issue” laws, violent crime rates dropped. He thus concludes that shall-issue laws reduce violent crime.

    Lott’s model also found that increasing unemployment and reducing income reduces the rate of violent crime and that reducing the number of African American women over the age of 40 substantially reduces murder rates. Both of these conclusions are completely counterintuitive and should have been cause for reconsideration.

    Moreover, drawing conclusions about causation is statistically impossible when using retrospective data as Lott used.

    In all fairness, Lott made a decent attempt at addressing a very important issue in our society but he failed in many respects to produce sound research. Nevertheless, the pro-gun lobby has adopted Lott as their source of scientific wisdom. His finding is the cornerstone of almost every argument made by the pro-gun lobby. Lott’s position within this movement and his book proceeds are undoubtebly lucrative for him personally.

    As for the FBI’s “Uniformed” crime report: It is very easy for the lay person to draw sweeping conclusions from raw compilations of data and ranked lists. Indeed, if you go to the FBI’s uniformed crime reports site (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm) and click on 2007, a box appears which cautions you to this effect.

    Basically what I am saying is that association (and coincidence) doesn’t equal causation, and someone can draw out of a dataset most any conclusion they desire using the right methods.

    I would suggest taking a class or two in applied statistics and a class in epidemiology. Then go find Lott’s paper, skips the abstract and conclusions, and go straight to the “Methods” section.

    Generally, approach “facts” with a discerning mind and draw your own conclusions.

  • tc
    02/11 12:32 PM

    “If a criminal thinks that a citizen is armed, they are less likely to attack, if they know that a citizen isn’t armed, what is stopping them?”

    You didn’t answer the question.  If the gun is concealed, then the criminal has no possible way to distinguish between an armed and unarmed citizen.  The question is, why would a criminal think that a citizen is armed, just because they have a gun that is concealed?  The gun is CONCEALED, therefore, there is no visual cue to distinguish them from an unarmed citizen. 

    “At Virginia tech, Cho killed the first two people that he knew, the other 30 sum people that he shot were random.”

    Could have been, we have no real way of knowing how random it was, but regardless, he did not choose V.Tech’s campus BECAUSE it was gun-free, he chose it for personal reasons unrelated to the armament of the student population.

    “i sincerely hope that none of you ever end up in a situation where you are being harmed because you don’t have a way to defend yourself.”

    And I sincerely hope that you never find yourself in a situation where you feel the need to pull your gun and shoot someone, and if you do, I sincerely hope that you don’t shoot the wrong person on accident, by chance, or due to poor judgment.

  • miamiblue
    02/11 12:35 PM

    I personally would rather have everyone open-carrying than concealing their weapon. Why bother to conceal if you think the mere fact of being armed is going to be a crime deterrant? I legitimately don’t understand the point of it. Just let everyone see it.

    And as for the “bad guys” being deterred in places that allow concealed-carry just because it is allowed. What? People who are committing crimes obviously don’t care too much for laws to begin with, so I highly doubt they will take the time to know exactly where and what they are just for the purpose of committing their crime.

  • James M
    02/11 01:33 PM

    Corey - If you really want to know when one has the right to use deadly force, read the North Carolina State law (http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bychapter/chapter_14.html) Basically, if as reasonable person would be in fear of their life, they have the right to defend themself with the force necessary to eliminate the threat. There are a few other time when deadly force is allowed in NC (prevent sexual assault, prevent forced entry) but this is what you seem to be referring to. All of this is gone over extensively in the NC concealed handgun class.

    J - I’m glad that at least one person on here is doing their own research and drawing their own conclusions rather than arguing from emotion. I have read multiple studies, reports, and articles about the mere passing of laws that allow conceal carry to lower crime rates in the following years. It has been a while since I have read any of these and I don’t have the information on hand. If I can find it I will be glad to post it.

    TC - I am not saying that a criminal will look at each individual person and say, “he has a gun, I won’t rob him.” What I am saying is that if a criminal knows that their intended victims will not be armed because the victim is presumably following the law, they will be more likely to attack than if there is a possibility that they are armed.

    Miamiblue - Simply because criminals choose not to follow the laws, doesn’t mean that they don’t choose when and where to commit their crime for the best possible outcome.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 01:41 PM

    James M - you haven’t answered the question with an answer from your heart. If I see that you have that concealed gun and you’re getting nasty with me and I think you’re reaching for your gun - at what moment will you forgive me for shooting you in the face?

    I do enjoy knowing what gives me the right to take your life without you having any hard feelings about dying at my hands. I’m sensitive that way.

  • John
    02/11 01:44 PM

    Could a law abiding citizen with a firearm have stopped Cho immediately? Maybe not. People can say, “It would just be too confusing! Bullets would be everywhere! Police would shoot innocents!” Well folks, what I just did there was create a bad scenario. I can also create another one: “Do nothing, hide under your desk, and await to be executed-just like the 32 students”. So, which is it?

    The fact is simple. If you were in that classroom @ VT, knowing that those doors were chained, knowing that you were doomed, knowing that the police couldn’t do a rats ass thing to help you,  you would abso-fucking-lutely want a gun. Don’t try to liberal talk your way out of that. Let me guess, “Oh well I would just hide. More guns equals more deaths. Can we talk the shooter out of it? Perhaps he’s just troubled”.

    Fact is, those schools are ALREADY GUN FREE SCHOOLS! Didn’t work too well these past years did it?

  • Magnus
    02/11 01:47 PM

    Guns are out there, and no amount of legislation is going to fix it.

    I would rather stack the deck and have more armed “good guys” to outnumber the thugs and make them think twice about committing a crime with a gun.

    And I’d much rather bypass concealed carry and see more open carry, on campus and elsewhere.  NC law favors open carry but most cops don’t know the law so gun owners get hassled.

  • Ken Metzger
    02/11 01:48 PM

    Please keep in mind that a concealed law would not have affected Columbine or Virginia Tech.  The individuals were mentally unstable and were willing to die for their “cause”.  They all killed themselves, so how would the knowledge that others may be armed change anything in their minds?  People only use these scenarios to generate strong emotions for their cause.

  • Magnus
    02/11 01:49 PM

    @Ken - It wouldn’t have changed the mind of someone like Cho at VT, but it certainly would have increased the odds that his final body count would be lower if students had the option to defend themselves against him. He slaughtered them like cattle because they had no reasonable means of self defense available to them.

  • James M
    02/11 01:50 PM

    If I intend to cause you seriously physical harm, then you can shoot me in the face.

    If I am pointing a gun at you, you can shoot me in the face.

    If I pull a knife on you and tell you to give me your money or I’ll kill you, you can shoot me in the face.

    If I am about to rape your girlfriend, you can shoot me in the face.

    If I chain the door shut and start shooting students one by one, you can shoot me in the face.

    Be serious man. People who have concealed carry permits are proven to be responsible by FBI background checks, mental &  physical health background checks, personal references, as well as taking the class to know the laws and qualifying at a firing range to prove that they are competent with their fire arm. These aren’t the kind of people that are going to shoot someone over a parking space. The kinds of people that are going to shoot someone over petty things aren’t going to worry about whether or not they are breaking a law by carrying a concealed weapon.

  • James M
    02/11 01:52 PM

    I agree with John and Magnus. If 1 person in that classroom could have shot Cho after person #31, it is 1 more innocent person that is still alive.

  • John
    02/11 01:52 PM

    @Ken,
    So by your logic, had a police officer been in the building, that officer should NOT intercept/shoot the offender, because that would “not have effected the outcome”

  • corey3rd
    02/11 01:54 PM

    As if you’re going to survive a school attacker. You ever had a gun put to your head? Have you taken a bullet?

    If you’re so up for being a survivor with a gun, why aren’t you in Afghanistan fighting the terrorists? Why are you wasting your talent on an education at a violent university?

    Nice to see you demean the people at Virginia Tech that did take action to save the lives of others. Color them all as cowards. Why don’t you take your little routine up to Blacksburg and let them know what you really think of the students and teachers who were killed that day.

  • Magnus
    02/11 01:57 PM

    The cops at VT were outside scratching their nuts while Cho was inside slaughtering students. The police are not there to help you; they are there to bring a prosecution after the crime has been committed. SCOTUS has already declared that the police have no obligation to protect you.

    corey, I don’t know what you’re smoking, but if you really want this flavor of socialism why aren’t you in the UK instead of wasting your talents on North Carolina?

  • John
    02/11 02:00 PM

    No one is calling them cowards. I don’t blame them for doing nothing. THEY COULDN’T DO ANYTHING. Because of people like YOU who would rather have 32 dead students just in order to keep schools “gun free”.

    Answer my question. Do gun free schools WORK? Are you happy?

  • James M
    02/11 02:00 PM

    Are you even reading what you type? That isn’t at all what any of us are saying. I didn’t call a single person at VT a coward? I feel horrible for what happened and can only imagine how helpless those students must have felt. They were following the law and didn’t have a way to defend themselves against an attacker with a firearm. They could have taken all kinds of action to save themselves and others, but being severely under prepared puts you at quite a disadvantage.

    And for the record, they won’t let someone with severe asthma and two herniated disks in their back in the military.

  • John
    02/11 02:01 PM

    Perfect response Magnus!! I think Corey would LOVE the UK!

    By the way Corey, make sure if you attend a UK school to wear knife resistant vests. Sure, a school shooting there is rare, but Lord help you with those evil assault knives.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 02:04 PM

    James - that’s not the situation I presented. It’s you and me having a heated discussion when I see your gun and your hand going in the area of that gun. Are you going to care if I attack you in the name of my defense? because part of my defense is to make sure you don’t use your concealed weapon on me.

    When I went to NC State, we were allowed to have open beers in the classroom. We didn’t have a problem with guns on the campus. Maybe they just need to bring back beer so you kiddies won’t be such a bunch of uptight white guys who swear you’re going to be the next victim.

    You want to play cowboys with your guns - go west.

  • John
    02/11 02:05 PM

    Corey,
      I highly suggest you do something that most anti-concealed carry people don’t do. Do some research. Read the facts. Go to SCCC, GT, Oleg Volk, or pro2a.org and ask some questions and read up. I promise we gun owners are not hibernating school shooters.

  • John
    02/11 02:07 PM

    “We didn’t have a problem with guns on the campus. “

    Didn’t you just prove our point?

  • Ken Metzger
    02/11 02:10 PM

    Hey John, if you are going to quote me please don’t put quotation marks around something I didn’t actually say.
    I am not saying there may have been a chance to reduce the tragedy.  I am countering the argument that many have made that there would have been a deterrent to the tragedies.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 02:13 PM

    Having had a friend who was stabbed to death, your little joke is really funny.

  • James M
    02/11 02:13 PM

    It won’t matter if I care, I’ll be dead.

    Corey, you are obviously ignorant of most gun laws. I am licensed to carry concealed in the state of NC. Which means that I carry concealed in walmart. It has been legal for years to carry concealed at walmart and strangely you don’t see people getting shot left and right. Also, my Glock isn’t shiny, it is flat black.

    You also seem to be ignorant in general. I’m not wanting to play cowboys, I just want to protect myself. I pray to god every day that my family and I stay safe, but I also prepare in case we don’t. My gun is a tool. I don’t use a hammer unless I need a hammer. I hope that I own my gun for the rest of my life and never need it
    Lastly, I still don’t see what race has to do with anything, yet you still keep bring it up.

  • James M
    02/11 02:14 PM

    Corey, don’t you wish that friend would have had a way to defend himself, or are you glad that he didn’t have a gun?

  • John
    02/11 02:15 PM

    Ok. Are Gun Free Zone signs a deterrent?

    (If you don’t answer I’m going to assume you can’t answer)

  • corey3rd
    02/11 02:16 PM

    “Do nothing, hide under your desk, and await to be executed-just like the 32 students”.

    Sounds like somebody was mocking the 32 students and teachers that died at Virginia Tech.

    What does race have to do with a movement started by a bunch of white guys? Are there any blacks or Latinos with their empty holsters in this little black shirt brigade?

  • John
    02/11 02:17 PM

    “Having had a friend who was stabbed to death, your little joke is really funny.”

    Maybe your friend would be alive if he was in a Knife Free Zone?

    I don’t mean to be rude, but it’s the same logic your using. I’m sorry for your loss, but you’re proving our points more than you’re proving yours.

  • Magnus
    02/11 02:17 PM

    What is with the race baiting? I suppose that’s what people do when they don’t have a valid point to make.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 02:18 PM

    and what makes you think my friend could have reached for his gun? Are you Quincy?

  • John
    02/11 02:19 PM

    “Sounds like somebody was mocking the 32 students and teachers that died at Virginia Tech.”

    Dude. Use your mouse. Scroll up. Read. No one is mocking.

    Who the hell keeps bring up race? Corey? What are you talkking about? Are you out of arguments?

  • Magnus
    02/11 02:19 PM

    I’m still having trouble believing that you have any friends, Corey.

  • John
    02/11 02:20 PM

    Corey,
    Chances are your friend would have been dead anyway, even with a gun yes. But if you could give him a second chance, would you give him a firearm that very second?

    *I don’t expect a response, I’m using too much logic*

  • corey3rd
    02/11 02:22 PM

    Magnus - prove to me this is little movement has any minorities that are walking around with their empty holsters. Prove that Johnny Whitebread at the top of this article is part of a Rainbow Coalition.

    My questioning of the racial nature of this “concealed weapons” crew was brought up very early in this thread. It’s not a run out of arguments.

  • Magnus
    02/11 02:25 PM

    Wow… this has turned into the twilight zone.

    Rational arguments don’t work against irrational people. Have fun in your little world, though, Corey. But be careful because whitey is out there.

  • James M
    02/11 02:25 PM

    Corey, why does it matter if their are minorities or not? What does that have do to with anything? You are the only one who seems concerned with this.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 02:27 PM

    Magnus - where are the black students that want their concealed weapons on campus? Where are they? Are they a part of your little group?

  • John
    02/11 02:31 PM

    I have…no idea..what the race thing is, or why it’s brought up.

    Corey, can you answer my question or no?

  • Ken Metzger
    02/11 02:34 PM

    “Oh, no, son. That’s not the way it is. You kids have been nothin’ but punks. Sissified. So quick to pick up a gun. Too scared to take an ass-whipping. [Raises his fists] This is what makes you a man. When I was growing up, this was all the protection we needed. You win some, you lose some. But you live, you live to fight another day! Now you think you’re a man with a gun in your hands, don’t you?”

  • Micah
    02/11 02:37 PM

    The Constitution might not be, in the end,  the most realistic reason to allow every citizen the right to bear arms.  This country was quite a different place when the Constitution was drafted, and firearms were quite different as well.  Someone earlier commented about the UK and how very few of the Police there carry firearms.  This is true, and in fact over 90% of Police do not carry firearms.  They have a very low incidence of gun violence.  To all those college kids that are worked up into a tizzy about not being able to carry concealed on campus; You are young enough that you will see, if you’re lucky, a time when the right to bear arms is drastically changed.  Times have changed, and you can mark my words…This will all be a moot point in a decade or so.

  • James M
    02/11 02:37 PM

    What does Friday have to do with any of this?

  • John
    02/11 02:38 PM

    You know, Ken.

    I’m done arguing. Yes, I DO feel like a SAFE man with a firearm. Why? Because I know I can have it, get in an argument, and use my fists without even a recalection that I am carrying. But the OTHER guy takes out a knife, all of a sudden I can use my firearm. Or any other scenario.

    Yes, I am compensating for something. I am compensating for the fact that I know CRIMINALS do not obey laws.

    I am compensating for the fact that I know I, at the end of the day, will survive, because I have a TOOL, that allows me to do so.

    End of discussion. I have class now.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 02:43 PM

    This is the South - race is always an issue.

    Are there black members of your organization? Have you actively sought out minorities to join in your crusade? Where are the pictures of them with their empty holsters?

  • James M
    02/11 02:45 PM

    I’m with John. Corey can’t deal with anything else we have to say so he goes off on another tangent, hoping he can prove some kind of racial issue that doesn’t exist.
    Corey, I am done discussing this with you.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 02:47 PM

    Discussing what? Will you identify the minority members of this group or shall we just assume that the membership of this organization resembles the poster boy above? Is this a group of white Southern males?

  • Ken Metzger
    02/11 02:52 PM

    Sorry, I was just trying to add a little lightheartedness.  I don’t think it worked.

  • hank
    02/11 02:52 PM

    If we looked at what caused crime instead of how to deter or kill or ward of criminals we would live in a better world.  Education and eradicating poverty will decrease crime.  Not allowing guns on campus.  Guns are part of the problem not the solution.

  • hank
    02/11 02:54 PM

    I think the Friday quote is spot on.

  • James M
    02/11 02:55 PM

    I am not currently a member of http://www.campuscarry.com I honestly don’t know the ratio of white to black, or any other race for that matter. I am still confused to its importance. If a group is assembled, and no minorities are present, does that make the group racists, or does it simply mean that no minorities are interested at the time?
    I was under the impression that the photo at the top of this page was taken for this article, no necessarily the ‘posterboy’ for the group.

  • James M
    02/11 03:02 PM

    Hank, the quote would be spot on if the bad guys didn’t have guns. If bad guys didn’t have guns, good guys wouldn’t need them. But they do, so we do.

  • John
    02/11 03:04 PM

    Right now I am in a computer class.

    Coincidentally, only 1 black person.

    Does that make this a racist computer science class?

  • corey3rd
    02/11 03:07 PM

    Now you’re getting really defensive about the lack of blacks who think this is a thrilling idea or how you would feel if the guy at the top of this thread was black and demanding he carry a concealed weapon.

    When I took a computer class at NC State, we had 4 black students.

  • John
    02/11 03:11 PM

    Dude,
    You’re making ZERO sense right now.

    If the guy at the top of the thread was black, I would be THRILLED. Because it would show that SELF DEFENSE is a RIGHT for all races.

    I’m starting to think you really don’t care about this issue, you just want to argue.

  • James M
    02/11 03:11 PM

    Seriously? You are the person getting defensive about the last of blacks. As stated earlier, I have no problem with black people carrying concealed. In fact, there was a black guy in my concealed carry class and I gave him some advice on choosing a carry gun.

  • John
    02/11 03:12 PM

    Off Topic—Have you ever been institutionalized?

  • corey3rd
    02/11 03:14 PM

    But is this black guy part of this new push to get concealed weapons on NC State? Is he?

    Is anyone who is gung ho for hidden pistols on Dan Allen black?

    Is this a White Southern Male issue?

  • John
    02/11 03:16 PM

    Everyone disregard Corey. I was enjoying this discussion prior to his appearence.

    Anyone else have anything valid to contribute

  • James M
    02/11 03:18 PM

    John - Agreed. Race has NOTHING do to with anything I have said here. I am finished discussing anything that has to do with race.

  • corey3rd
    02/11 03:18 PM

    Shut up John

  • tc
    02/11 03:20 PM

    “What I am saying is that if a criminal knows that their intended victims will not be armed because the victim is presumably following the law, they will be more likely to attack than if there is a possibility that they are armed”

    But how does a criminal know that?  If they are carrying a concealed gun, how can they presume no one else is?  My point is, I don’t think criminals put as much rational thought into their choice of victim as you’re suggesting. Even if it’s illegal, there is still the “possibility that they are armed”.  I would think most violent crimes are based on rage, desperation, or opportunism, where determining which victims are least likely to be armed is not a major consideration.

  • John
    02/11 03:22 PM

    TC,
    A criminal may never know. But, if I were a criminal, I would feel a lot safer robbing a bank where guns are not allowed, rather than robbing a gun store.

    Just sayin’.

  • tc
    02/11 03:25 PM

    Oh, and the person who referred to a gun as a tool of survival, are you freaking serious?

    If you’re in deep in the wilderness, where you need to hunt for sustenance, if you’re in a war, where it is kill or be killed, yes it is. 

    But when you’re on a college campus, in America, in the 2000’s, calling a gun a survival tool is beyond foolish.

  • James M
    02/11 03:26 PM

    I can see what you are saying, but it simply isn’t so.

    Australia banned guns, crime rates went up.
    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15304

    The bad guys knew that the good guys weren’t armed.

  • John
    02/11 03:27 PM

    TC,
    So that means the cops should NOT intervene in an active shooter scenario. Since by your logic, it’s not the wilderness, a warzone, etc. It’s a “Campus”. It would be “foolish” to use the gun, since it’s not a tool for survival on a campus.

    Right?

  • James M
    02/11 03:27 PM

  • tc
    02/11 03:41 PM

    “So that means the cops should NOT intervene in an active shooter scenario. Since by your logic, it’s not the wilderness, a warzone, etc. It’s a “Campus”. It would be “foolish” to use the gun, since it’s not a tool for survival on a campus.”

    Seriously, how does this statement make sense with what I said?  If gun advocates use logic this poor, I’m even more worried that they are carrying guns. 

    What part of what I said implied that cops should not intervene in an “active shooter scenario”?

  • John
    02/11 03:44 PM

    YOU SAID,
    Using a gun on campus as a survival tool is unnecessary. DID YOU NOT?

  • James M
    02/11 03:44 PM

    You are saying that guns aren’t tools for survival in the current times on college campuses, however, people commit violent crimes on college campuses. Therefor, a gun would be a tool to stop that violence.

  • tc
    02/11 03:44 PM

    “I would feel a lot safer robbing a bank where guns are not allowed, rather than robbing a gun store.”

    So what you’re just sayin, is that allowing students to carry concealed guns, is analogous to a gun-free campus becoming a gun store?

  • John
    02/11 03:46 PM

    I equate Gun Free Zones as = Victim Zones.

  • tc
    02/11 03:47 PM

    “YOU SAID,
    Using a gun on campus as a survival tool is unnecessary. DID YOU NOT?”

    No, I said that referring to a gun as a tool necessary for survival on a college campus, is beyond foolish.  There is a big difference.

  • John
    02/11 03:49 PM

    Fine! Then by your logic, I will go to the next police officer I see here on campus and tell him..

    “Are you expecting a war? That’s foolish”.

  • tc
    02/11 03:49 PM

    do you think of yourself as a police officer just because you carry a gun?

  • John
    02/11 03:50 PM

    Dude, answer my question.

  • John
    02/11 03:51 PM

    (Typical anti response. They avoid the question at hand. Can’t answer. Must move on!)

  • tc
    02/11 03:51 PM

    “Fine! Then by your logic, I will go to the next police officer I see here on campus and tell him..“Are you expecting a war? That’s foolish”.”

    There is no question in this statement, dude.

  • John
    02/11 03:53 PM

    Allow me to rephrase since you can’t seem to comprehend things.

    Do you.
    Think.
    It would make sense.
    For me.
    To assume it is foolish.
    For a cop.
    To carry a gun.
    On campus.

  • David Fox
    02/11 03:55 PM

    The way I see it, if a cop has the need/desire to carry a gun (don’t they all) they must perceive a threat. Thus, if they feel threatened to such an extent to arm themselves, why can’t other citizens arm themselves in the same manner?

    Also, regarding concealed carry, I personally like the idea of open carry better. But if I were a student on a campus that did not allow concealed carry I’d carry anyway - better to be judged by twelve than carried by six!

  • John
    02/11 03:56 PM

    I think David said it best. It’s difficult for me to word it.

  • tc
    02/11 03:57 PM

    No.  Cops are allowed to carry guns on campus already, and they do so to protect civilians in the case of emergencies. 

    You’re rephrasing was not due to my lack of comprehension, but due to your lack of making any logical argument. 

    I’m done wasting my time arguing with the branch davidian that got away.

  • John
    02/11 03:59 PM

    You’re the one who has fallacy in your logic.

    IF Cops carry guns that is because they feel a threat.

    What you’re saying is, I cannot carry a firearm because I should not protect myself.

    (By the way, I will be a police officer in less than a year).

  • John
    02/11 04:01 PM

    By the way, your eager desire to become defenseless is none of my concern.

    I personally do not care if you choose to shoot back, defend yourself, or pick up a phone and call 911 during an emergency.

    I am law a abiding citizen, and guess what? I don’t have to worry about picking up the phone.

  • James M
    02/11 04:02 PM

    The police’s job is to bring criminals to justice, not to protect each individual. Ask any police officer and they will tell you this. Most police officers support concealed carry.

    Remember, when seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

  • Ken Metzger
    02/11 04:06 PM

    To protect and serve?

  • John
    02/11 04:12 PM

    Ken,
      Research Warren VS. D.C.

      It ruled that “The police have no obligation to protect the individual. Personal protection is the sole responsibility of the individual”

  • James M
    02/11 04:12 PM

    Just keep telling yourself that. Look at the ratio of officers to people in your city. There are nearly 30 thousand students at ECU, and maybe 20 ‘security guards,’ not even real cops, on campus at any given time. If you think that those cops can protect each individual person at once, you are sorely mistaken.

  • LadyT
    02/11 04:15 PM

    Corey, what part of “Concealed” are you having a problem with? Legally concealed means *hidden from view*. You wouldn’t see the concealed handgun while arguing with the other person unless that person felt threatened and had to pull the weapon to protect themself from a threat of bodily injury.

    It is the illegally carried weapon you have to worry about, because the owner of that weapon has nothing to lose by shooting you. The person who has gone to the expense and time consuming trouble to get his/her CCW has proven they are a law abiding citizen and is proficient with their tool of self defense.

  • d
    02/11 06:20 PM

    Wow,

    Interesting comments. 

    I have been on college campuses around the world and I must say this reinforces NC State’s reputation as low brow and “hickey”.  If I am on campus and I see everyone strapped with their “nines”, although legally allowed, somehow that defeats the academic spirit for me.  Imagine, if all the students walked around with their legally allowed handguns—who would want to go to that school?

    We get the society we want!  Wow, If you fear for your safety at NC State so much, why don’t you transfer to another school—-wow, didn’t know NC State was that violent and I hope you survive.  I am retired military and never felt the need to strap on my weapon for safety—just my opinion.  Oh and by the way, I have always lived in major cities, not the suburbs but the city.

    And to jump on Corey’s point—if a bunch of white only people were walking around with their legally allowed guns it would create a situation that minorities would be VERY uncomfortable with, just the same as a bunch of black only students walking around with their legally owned handguns—it’s only relevant to the minority it offends, and this situation could offend a minority—

    But remember—our differences is what makes this country great and I am proud to have protected your freedom to disagree with me.

  • Daryl Johnson
    02/11 07:10 PM

    Race has nothing to do with this argument.
    I’m bright green.

    This is not just a NCSU cause.  This event is taking place all over NC.  It has been in the Chapel Hill, Raleigh, Charlotte, and even some VA news as various colleges are participating in this event.  There are even professors participating as well.

  • James M
    02/11 07:17 PM

    I agree that race has nothing to do with it. I’m not supporting only white people carrying, I’m supporting anyone with a CCL to be allowed to.
    It has nothing to do with NC state either, I go to ECU.
    Read LadyTs post. Concealed means concealed, you wouldn’t know it was there unless the situation warranted it.

  • John
    02/11 08:46 PM

    I think along the lines, someone brought up race because they had nothing else to argue with.

    Race card. Accepted Everywhere!

  • ed
    02/11 09:36 PM

    “Clearly that’s the case, but with concealed carry I don’t get to make the choice of where I feel safe with respect to who has a gun and who doesn’t. Open carry is fine by me, why the push for concealed?”

    Jason, you should probably avoid every restaurant in town, Wal-Mart, all gas stations, and many many more places if you REALLY want to choose where you feel safe.  Seeing as how licensed concealed carry is already permitted in all of those places.

  • LadyT
    02/12 01:42 AM

    d…
    I hope you continue to feel safe everywhere you go. I also pray that if you should ever need your life protected, there is a legally authorized CCW holder nearby that will stand up to protect you. After all…when seconds count between life and death, police are only minutes away.

  • Jacob
    02/12 03:54 AM

    The benefits of concealed carry being allowed on campus far outweigh the costs.

    I don’t carry a gun to make me feel like a man. I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.

    I don’t carry a gun because I feel inadequate. I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs or an armed and deranged mass murderer, I am inadequate.

    I don’t carry a gun because I love it. I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

     

    “Police Protection” is an oxymoron. Free citizens must protect themselves. Police do not protect you from crime; they investigate the crime after-the-fact and then call someone in to clean up the mess.


    A J-frame Smith and Wesson .38 snub like the model 642 is the ideal compact CCW piece IMHO. If it isnt on your body, it isnt going to do you any good in most public situations.

  • miamiblue
    02/12 09:44 AM

    If someone has been properly educated, is law-abiding and - most importantly - mentally stable, I don’t see a problem with people choosing to carry a gun. My father has always owned a gun and has always kept one in the cars (not in NC). I personally choose not to have a gun, but I am fine with the fact that the right is there.

    But I am still having trouble fully understanding this protest. Can someone please explain why *concealed* carry is the pressing issue? If you want to carry a gun to ward off the bad guys, why not just open carry? To me that is an even greater deterrant than having a concealed weapon. Just wondering.

  • LadyT
    02/12 10:57 AM

    Miami…
    If a person carries in the open, they could be singled out as the first victim if there was to be a shooting. If they were allowed to carry concealed, the person intent on shooting innocents wouldn’t know who was prepared to defend themselves and could act as a deterrent.

    Also, you see all the argument here? Open carry tends to cause stress in those who are anti-gun and could hurt their ability to concentrate on their assignments.

    I had an anti-gunner try to get me evicted from my home because she saw my gun while I was checking the mail. She almost managed, but I proved to the management that she was the only one in the building who had a problem with it!

    Kinda sad the freedoms we give up to try to keep the peace…

  • Let's be honest about this
    02/12 01:56 PM

    There seems to be some contradictions in some of these arguments.  You want to carry a gun, because of perceived threats, 1: thinking it will be a deterrant to violent crimes, 2: so you can defend yourself and others in the case of violent crimes.  You want to conceal it 1:  so that criminals wont single you out, 2:  so that anti-gun advocates wont be afraid due to the visual presence of guns.

    Is it really possible for all those conditions to exist?  What I mean is, how can you scare criminals off due to the presence of guns and simultaneously, not scare non-gun carrying civilians off?  I sincerely doubt that criminals capable of irrational violence will be capable of making the rational consideration that guns could be concealed.  Therefore, if guns are concealed, therefore non-gun carrying civilians wont be freaked out, then criminals wont be either, and for the presence of the gun to make any difference in the criminal situation, you will have to draw it.  If you carry it unconcealed, and criminals are aware of their presence before they are drawn, then non-gun carrying civilians will also be aware, and I imagine presence of guns like that, will scare some of these civilians off, making them too uncomfortable/distracted to receive the education they are paying for. 

    I don’t blame people for being scared enough to want to carry guns, I just think they need to be aware of the complications and consequences it will bring.

  • CF
    02/12 02:20 PM

    I still don’t get how an empty holster symbolizes the inability to carry a concealed gun.

  • LadyT
    02/12 02:58 PM

    I’m not concerned about the complications involved in carrying concealed. I carry everywhere I go except the courthouse and school. If some place I want to go is posted non carry, I will go somewhere else that will allow me to carry.

  • Celia Fate
    02/12 05:16 PM

    “HORMONAL TEENS running around with guns on campus is not my idea of a safe environment. “

    to me, this is all that needs to be said. aaaaand….done.

  • mjb
    02/12 06:19 PM

    1.This group is not trying to change things to exclude anyone, black,white,brown, blue… If anything it makes everyone more equal. If a woman is being attack by a 250lb man, most will not be able fight them off. A person with a gun has a better chance- a more equal chance to protect themselves. I think that if you are worried about a group of KKK guys jumping a blackman, he would like the chance to be armed.

    2.If you studie the history of gun laws in the south, you will see that the first laws were inacted to control access by guns by blacks. If you were not the right race, the High Sherriff would not let you get a guns. Laws were changed so that anyone that meets the letter of the law can buy and carry a gun.

    3.The founding father worded the US Constitution to give the people the power to protect themselves. This keeps the .gov from getting to much power. If you think that this will not happen in the US, you have not studied history very well.

    4. Everyone from the south with a gun is not a racest. I shoot, hunt, fish… with blacks, browns, whites… and yet I was born and raised here in NC.

    5. By having “Gun Free” zones, crooks know that they have a 99% chance to rob, assult, harm, ... a unarmed person. If you have conceld carry , it leave them guessing.

  • mjb
    02/12 06:26 PM

    “HORMONAL TEENS running around with guns on campus is not my idea of a safe environment. “
    to me, this is all that needs to be said. aaaaand….done”

    Again, someone who dose know what is need for a conceld carry permit.

    -Must be over 21
    -No felony record
    -never have been committed to mental hospital

    You are more likly to raped by a drunk kid that shot by a conceled carry holder.

  • Daryl Johnson
    02/12 06:48 PM

    The empty holsters show that we believe in carrying a concealed weapon, but on campus our holsters are empty.
    Why not show off how good looking some of them are while raising awareness to the disregard of the Second Amendment.

  • BuckyK
    02/12 07:58 PM

    Is it just me or is everyone arguing for the extreme?

    Yes, if someone had a gun in those classrooms they could have intervened.

    No, it is not the same thing to be an armed citizen and a police officer. Police officers are charged to “preserve peace” regardless of the outcome.

    No, guns do not make situations safer. There is more than enough research to prove they do not (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9507E6D91631F934A15756C0A9659C8B63)

    Should the second amendment be revoked? No.

    Should they be allowed to be carried everywhere? Even a more resounding No.

    State, and every other institution, is well within their right to ban guns. There is an assumption that the only people who carry guns on a campus are there to do good.

    The last thing we need is a vigilante system where we shoot first and ask questions later.

    The argument is moot. Wear your holsters, but you carrying a gun isn’t going to stop isolated atrocities that cannot be predicted. They’ll just show up with some explosives next time.

  • BuckyK
    02/12 08:14 PM

    PS….We need Spiderman.


    Everyone gets one…

  • BuckyK
    02/12 08:18 PM

    Oh, and one more thing arguing for institutions’ rights, who is responsible for checking the concealed weapons permit for each individual carrying a gun?

    Do we put someone at every classroom door to check your permit? Seems a little irrational.

  • James M
    02/12 09:28 PM

    Bucky - There is no need to check each individuals permits every day. Do police check each person driving for their license on a daily basis? If one is caught with a concealed gun and doesn’t have a license, they are committing a crime. Also, I think what a lot of people fail to realize that students can already own guns. I am a student at ECU and have a concealed carry license. The law states that I can not carry my gun on campus, not that I can not have one at all. I don’t know who these “hormonal Teens” that you people keep speaking of are. We aren’t talking about high school. You are 18 years old when you begin college. 18 and 19 are hardly years of raging hormones. And even if they were, it would be irrelevant. The fact is you can not get a concealed license or own a handgun until you are 21 years old.

    Want to know why I want to carry a gun? Here are two emails I got just today.
    “Sexual Assault

    On 02/11/09 a sexual assault was reported to the ECU Police Department that took place in Greene Hall in the early morning hours of 02/10/09.  The incident is under investigation at this time.

    If you are the victim of a crime on campus, you are reminded to contact the ECU Police Department at 328-6787 as soon as possible.  If you can provide any information to this case to help this investigation, please call the above number or the ECU Police Crime Tip Line at 737-8477.”
    and “To ECU Students:

    University officials this afternoon received an anonymous email threat that violence would take place soon on the campus. ECU police, student affairs, academic affairs, and safety representatives immediately implemented threat-assessment techniques and standard operating procedures. They determined that the threat was not credible, that there was no immediate danger to the university community and that there was no need to close buildings or take any other extraordinary steps. No criminal activity was observed. Law enforcement officials at the local, state, and federal levels were informed of the email.

    We believe that students should feel free to pursue their normal activities. As always, please be mindful of your surroundings and report any suspicious behavior to campus police.

    Kemal M. Atkins
    Vice Provost for Student Affairs
    East Carolina University

    Now tell me how a gun wouldn’t be a survival tool?

  • Edward
    02/12 11:02 PM

    Racist origins of gun control

    http://www.lizmichael.com/racistgc.htm

  • BuckyK
    02/12 11:03 PM

    Not sure if those are apples for apples. Yes, they both can, under law, be considered “deadly weapons.” However, the purpose for each is completely different.


    My last argument is a small government one! Give me that much!

  • carolinaboy
    02/12 11:15 PM

    The point of CONCEALED Carry is that, if prevalent enough (roughly 5% of the population) then criminals would have a pretty fair chance of experiencing a severe failure of the victim-selection process, resulting in a poor outcome of their chosen profession.

    OPEN carry would NOT acheive the same result, because if ONLY OPEN carry were permitted, the criminal would just select an unarmed victim.

    Those are not what I “Think” or “Feel” but the results of interviews with criminals in jail for armed robbery.  They were asked what they were most afraid of - police patrols or armed citizens.  Police were not the slightest concern or deterrence.  The concern over armed citizens however, was cited as a real consideration in their victim selection process; if they thought someone was armed, they would pick someone else.

    Habitual criminals do actually consider things like this.

    CB

  • Someone
    02/13 04:55 AM

    Its obviouse the maker of this article is highly liberal.
    Likely an ex hippy.

    Everyone has a right to self defense. Gun Laws are only obeyed by law abiding citizens, not mass murderers like VT.

    Gun Safe zones are more like ringing a dinner bell for these madman and saying UNARMED SHEEP HERE!
    Arm the sheep and the wolf wont attack.

  • jm
    02/13 12:55 PM

    “Hormonal teenagers”? Concealed weapons permit holders must be 21 or older, trained in firearms safety, and the law, etc.

    These are adults. Adults who have the right (it’s called the second amendment, folks - perhaps you’ve heard of it?) to protect themselves, if need be. They are not trouble makers (a felony criminal record means no permit), they are not drunk frat boys (you cannot legally carry if intoxicated, or in any way “under the influence”). They have been fingerprinted, background checked, trained, and deemed “worthy” to carry a concealed weapon.

    They are simply not the people you need to be afraid of.

    Those that will harm you do not care about the law. Rape, murder, and robbery are against the law. So those never happen on campuses, right?

    Those that will harm you, will carry a gun, regardless of the law. If they do not have a gun, they will use a knife, rock, ice-pick, baseball bat, superior muscle, or whatever other means they have at their disposal.

    The ONLY people gun bans prevent from carrying a weapon, are LAW ABIDING citizens. Period. Gun bans do not decrease crime. In fact, the evidence overwhelmingly illustrates that banning guns results in an INCREASE in violent crime. Anyone familiar with the violent crime statistics in Washington D.C.? I am sure NOE of those were committed with guns, right ? <insert sarcastic eye roll>

    Guns are not the problem, and neither is LAWFUL concealed carry. The only reason some of you don’t seem to understand this very basic, proven logic, is because “rough men stand ready” to protect you. Or rather, you BELIEVE they do.

    How many campus cops are on duty at any given time? Are they armed? Do they know how to respond in any given situation? And how long will it take to get to you, in the even a madman attacks? Here’s a hint - they will be of no use to you in a violent attack, and will get there AFTER the madman has had time to kill you, your friends, your little sister, and the professor who screams “guns are bad, ban the guns”, as well as the bright-eyed young “hormonal teenagers” whose mommies thought they were attending a “safe campus; due mostly to the intentional under-reporting of violent crimes on college campuses.

    The fear mongering Brady campaign has actually failed to keep you safe. THey do not care about safety, only about control. The only people they are controlling, are the law-abiding folks that aren’t interested in hurting you anyway. The criminals, thugs, gangsters, and deranged (as well as the pissed off ex boyfriend with a drinking problem) are coming after you, or someone like you, REGARDLESS of what the Brady campaign, and your hippy professors tell you.

    Your best bet is a well-trained, law-abiding guy or girl who is at the next table in the dining hall, or walking across campus, who is willing to protect YOU, even though you are not willing to protect YOURSELF. Someone who thinks more of you than YOU do.

    Concealed carry is not a threat to anyone, but the bad guys. But if you’d rather roll out the red carpet to THEM, than to law-abiding, responsible ADULTS, let me know - I’ll send my kids to a college that allows them the basic human right of personal protection.

  • Not a moron
    02/13 12:59 PM

    Maybe you were unaware that teens aren’t legally allowed to own handguns.

    Try not to drool on your keyboard.

  • Miles
    02/13 11:57 PM

    Longest thread in a while.
    Over THIS subject.  Really?
    What is this ? A Kevin Smith movie ?!?!

    Ryan Adams has an empty holster, ya know.
    In his soul.


    That ought to swerve this.

  • Richard
    02/16 11:45 AM

    “I look at England and see a country were gun violence is much lower.”—Hank, 02/11 10:44 AM

    Yeah.  They just stab each other with knives instead.  That’s SO much better.

    A handgun does something that a knife, club or self-defense training can do - equalize force between opponents of unequal size.

    My daughter, soaking wet, weighs 96lbs.  She takes martial arts and self-defense classes.  She carries pepper spray.  When she turns 21, she’s getting her concealed carry permit.

    See, she knows things that some people here don’t: 

    When lives are at risk & seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

    SHE is responsible for her self-protection.

    No matter how much training she has, she’s nearly helpless against an unarmed attacker who outweighs her by 100 lbs or more, or against an armed attacker regardless of relative size or weight.

    Gun-Free Zones don’t stop criminals from having guns.  Criminals don’t obey laws.  That’s what the definition of a “criminal” is.


    SCCC isn’t about arming students; it’s about giving students who already have a legal right to carry concealed elsewhere to also carry on campus.  Is there something on the NC State Campus that would make these students - who act responsibly while dining out, at the mall, and at the local grocery store, suddenly go crazy when they step on campus?

  • Brad
    03/23 05:03 PM

    Well I see really good arguments for the concealed carry and horrible arguments from all the anti’s. As one stated, just having students who carry on campus doesn’t guarantee there won’t be another VTech type incident, this is true, but at least not everyone will be sheeple and completely helpless. The people you want to make fun of now and call scared are likely the ones you’d be thanking after they shoot and kill the gunman. Do you ever see mass shootings at a gun range??  Gun show??  Gun shop??  Why not??  Oh b/c people that want to do mass shootings target places like schools, churches and shopping centers where they expect everyone to be unarmed??  Oh that’s right, well at least we put those “no guns” signs up, we’ll all just pretend everyone see’s those no gun on campus and people like Dylan Klebold and Eric Karros won’t come in here and shoot the place up b/c we posted those pretty little signs with the sub-titles “Unarmed Sheeple - shoot at your own risk, they don’t shoot back”

    It’s funny to me that every anti tries to make it out like it’s a bunch of 15 years olds getting guns when it’s actually 21 year olds who must pass a background check and take training classes. They want everyone to think that having young people carry guns leads to massive bloodshed which of course it doesn’t. Look at the facts, violent crime rates drop in states that pass concealed carry laws. As for the anti’s, how does it affect you any if responsible citizens carry a concealed hangun safely, if anything, it makes you safer being in my presence b/c if some bad guy starts shooting, I’m gonna return fire which may save your life or at least keep the bad guy’s attention on me since I have a gun…

    There are 3 types of people in this world. 5% are wolves, the bad guys, the drug addicts, murderers, robbers and rapists that will do what they want to who they want. Then 90% are sheeple, those depending on others for their safety and believe calling 911 and waiting for 5 mins is a feasible measure of self-defense. Then the other 5% are what you call Sheep Dogs, those responsible, gun carrying citizens that go about their business unnoticed, ready to jump into action and protect the innocent sheeple and themselves at a moments notice…  One day, one of you sheeple will be in a situation where a concealed carry holder will save your ass or an ass of a someone you love and your mind will be forever changed about concealed carry. The most devout conservatives I know were once liberals victimized by a violent crime.

  • Rachel
    03/30 11:41 AM

    How many of you have A)Attended College and B)Had a Concealed Carry Permit? 
    As a young, female college student, I feel it is important to be able to defend myself.  I have been at ECU for almost 1 year, and have RARELY seen a Police officer on campus!
    I completely agree with the empty holster protest, and I am hoping to get ECU actively involved in SCCC.
    I have my permit, and I can honestly say that people don’t get them if they aren’t responsible enough to.  Look at it this way…If 18 year olds are allowed to enlist in the Military and go overseas (and use guns!!!) to protect our Country, I would think that responsible 21 year olds should certainly be able to defend themselves (and quite possibly others around them!) on AND off campus! 
    The stereotypes of college students really get my blood boiling. When I say “I go to ECU,” I automatically get the response “Oh, so you’re a party girl!” NO! I am there to get my degree and eventually get a good job.  Partying is not my thing.  There are plenty more college students like me - so this means that there are plenty of other responsible gun-toting citizens who are trying to carry on campus, so we can practice our right to defend ourselves (and others - think of your own son or daughter hiding under a desk, praying that the attacker will not walk their way - wouldn’t you like me to be there with my concealed handgun and possibly save your child’s life? I would like the right to save my own, thanks!).

  • corey3rd
    03/30 12:33 PM

    Well Rachel,

    You didn’t do much in Carthage the other day, did you? Where were you when those people were being shot to death? Where were you? You want to save people?
    People are dead and you couldn’t do a damn thing to save them. Way to not be a hero, Rachel.

  • Lady T
    03/30 01:20 PM

    Corey, you are a complete ass if you don’t see the idiocy of your own comments. We can’t be everywhere, but we will do what we can where we are.

    We aren’t Gods, we can’t see the future.

  • corey3rd
    03/30 01:38 PM

    Rachel went on her own little future hero trip with dream that she’s going to save so many people with her concealed weapons!

    She declared her future that she was going to save my child’s life. But she wasn’t there for 8 other people.

    Rachel wants to be a hero - too late for some people.

  • Rachel
    03/30 01:41 PM

    Corey,
    Obviously, you did not read the articles on this incident. Look here: http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/4837676/

    Now who’s the hero?  The man with a gun! He was a Police officer, but nonetheless, a man who was carrying a gun stopped this mental ill man from killing more people than he already had!

    So to answer your question… I WAS THERE! I was in Carthrage - Maybe not as Rachel - but as a responsible, law abiding citizen with a gun, who was willing to save the lives of others.

  • Edward
    03/30 01:42 PM

    It’s obviously too late for corey3rd.  Moron

  • corey3rd
    03/30 01:44 PM

    You were not there Rachel. He wasn’t you. he was a police officer. That’s not you, Rachel. You’re a student at ECU with a hero fixation involving your gun and saving my daughter’s life because you’re Linda Hamilton Jr.

    You weren’t there. A cop was there. A cop who doesn’t hide his gun.

  • Rachel
    03/30 01:57 PM

    HAHA Corey thinks I want to be a hero. 
    I would never go looking for situations to shoot an assailant and make myself look like a hero. 
    As Brad said earlier, “Then the other 5% are what you call Sheep Dogs, those responsible, gun carrying citizens that go about their business unnoticed, ready to jump into action and protect the innocent sheeple and themselves at a moments notice…”

    I’m not going to argue with you, Corey.

  • corey3rd
    03/30 02:12 PM

    Rachel
    There’s no argument in your vision of being a hero when you type: “wouldn’t you like me to be there with my concealed handgun and possibly save your child’s life?”

    You wrote yourself a hero script. You’re going to rush in with your gun and save the day. Can’t you see that Rachel? Or does that not come through your mirrored sunglasses?

    On top of that you somehow think that you and the cop from Carthage are EQUALS.

    You’re coming off like Seth Rogen in the trailers for Observe and Report.

  • Rachel
    03/30 02:17 PM

    Okay, so not ME - but as in someone with a firearm.
    You took that too literally.
    You can have the last word, as I can see this is going to go on forever between you and I if I do not let you have the final say…
    So go ahead. I’m going to be the bigger person here.  Like I said before, I’m not going to argue with you.
    Arguing over the internet is pointless.

  • corey3rd
    03/30 02:23 PM

    Rachel, Rachel, Rachel

    You wrote: So to answer your question… I WAS THERE! I was in Carthrage - Maybe not as Rachel - but as a responsible, law abiding citizen with a gun, who was willing to save the lives of others.

    You made yourself the police officer there. You were there in the form of a man with a guy - even though he was a cop and it’s his job to save lives from a person with a gun. You going into that building, Rachel? You hear shots. You hears screams. You going inside that building? You want to be there. Are you there? How many people have to die before you go in that building? Are you really there, Rachel?

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