Mass Transit Poll

In a recent WRAL poll, 60 percent of registered voters in Orange, Durham, and Wake counties support “light rail, buses or a combination of the two, along with dedicated lanes for circulators in downtown areas.” Now that Raleigh has a circulator bus running around the downtown core, do you think our city should have more public transit?

Of course there will be taxes, just like the wifi that has drawn so much controversy. But, let’s think about the future of our city, the fastest growing in the nation. We could actually already have a light rail in place in Raleigh.

Gitty Up Raleigh!

Take our Mass Transit Poll>

Erik03/25 08:13 PM

Quite a poll.

smitty03/25 10:19 PM

Supporting the bus and riding it appear to be two different things in Raleigh.

Amy G.03/26 06:22 AM

I would only support a light rail if it went to the airport.

tj03/26 08:07 AM

I am by no means a mass transit expert, but I try to keep up. I hear this airport argument constantly and I have to disagree with Amy. Having light rail to the airport would add an enormous cost to the system because there are no existing tracks that can be used for this.

Let’s focus on having a system that serves the public’s EVERYDAY travels (to work/school) and not just a few times a year. A shuttle service can be used to help connect people to the airport at a fraction of the cost.

Betsy03/26 09:09 AM

It would be great to see a streetcar integrated into an existing axial street—such as Hillsborough or Glenwood—shuttling back and forth continually from, say, the Fairgrounds to the Capitol.

Run it in the existing right-of-way, integrated with car traffic, which is typical of streetcars. No right-of-way acquisition costs, no need to tear down buildings, very little disruption.

This would be as popular as the massively successful R Circulator, and jump-start revitalization of Hillsborough Street (as an example).

As an entirely local service, it would also be much more immediately useful to *Raleigh* residents than a system designed for travel across multiple counties.

(I’m not at all sure why we should subsidize light-rail for people who choose to live 20 miles away from where they need to be every day.)

hackles1003/26 09:24 AM

I too think there should be a line that heads to and from the airport. I really think people would embrace that trip, and love saving money on parking (I know I would).

I also think its frustrating that people would not support any form of mass transit in this area if it doesn’t initially have a line to the airport, or north raleigh, or durham, or rtp, or whatever the current gripe should be. Try to be supportive, more lines can be added in the future, and I would wager a guess that we are better off getting the ball rolling, no matter where the initial first line/two are created, then stalling for another 10 years!

arthurb303/26 10:27 AM

I agree with Smitty. People say they want it but no one is willing to take two hours to get to work when it takes 45 min if they drive themselves.

Carver03/26 10:38 AM

Do we even have the “in⋅fra⋅struc⋅ture” to support a light rail?

T-Plain03/26 10:44 AM

As long as the planners completely fail to acknowledge that anything exists south of about Cabarrus St (I think it shows up on their maps as “HERE BE DRAGONS”), I’m fine with the “endless talk + no action = Raleigh transit” equation.

mgd03/26 12:52 PM

LOL Thats actually funny - T.

I just do think there is enough incentive to for people to drive to a train stop, ride the train, then walk or take a bus to their job.

I currently dont see enough people willing to do that. I think people for the most part currently are happy driving/carpooling to work. Maybe if gas goes back up to $5.00 people will start to think irrationally again.

I rode on an example of what the train was suppose to be in 97 or 98. They had the exhibition at Logans Trading Post. The train was nice but now I would suppose they would go with some newer design.

Simply put it doesnt go from densely populated area to densely populated area.

ChiefJoJo03/26 09:35 PM

As far as LRT to the airport goes, if you look at other metro systems, most did not connect initially, and some still don’t (LA, Salt Lake, Denver, etc)... all regions larger than the Triangle. The reason is they don’t generate many trips, at least right away, to justify the expense of bringing the service. A bus connection is sufficient and cost effective.

The best way to build is system is to connect existing and potential future high/mid density walkable nodes together while providing the infrastructure (streets, sidewalks, bike lanes, streetlights, etc) and zoning to foster transit-oriented development… which is the biggest reason we need to do this: to encourage sustainable land use patterns, not build park and ride lots for suburban commuters.

And I don’t want to hear garbage about subsidies. We built human scale, walkable communities for all 5000+ years of recorded human history until about 60 years ago, when we decided to spend trillions of dollars subsidizing wasteful, auto-only sprawl for decades (‘the greatest social engineering experiment of human history’ according to Chris Leinberger of Brookings). It’s time to wake up, get back to our roots and start making sustainable investments in our own communities instead of more sucking on the oil-teat.

Betsy03/27 08:57 AM

Yeah, Chief JoJo’s last paragraph* pretty much says it. The subsidy that we all pay to automotive travel is practically incalculable.

* (How DOES one make paragraph line breaks on this thing, anyway??)

mgd03/27 09:49 AM

People like time and money. They also like the most of each for smallest amount of effort.

I just dont think enough people currently in the Triangle find it beneficial to the point were they feel they get enough “bang for their buck” whether they save money or time.

Say its 20 miles round trip from my house to work. Current cost assuming my car MPG Avg is 20MPG thats $2.00…. and it takes me 30 min each way.

now compair to what is currently avaliable. I could be speaking to soon but I am positives that anyone on this forum has not done this.

http://tickets.amtrak.com/itd/amtrak/FareFinder?_tripType=Return&_origin=Raleigh,+NC+(RGH)&_depmonthyear=2009-03&_depday=27&_dephourmin=&_destination=Durham,+NC+(DNC)&_retmonthyear=2009-03&_retday=27&_rethourmin=&_adults=1&_children=0&_infants=0&_searchBy=schedule&x=12&y=13

Cost $10.00 Plus you have to take a bus or drive to the train station and then get from the train station to work in this case dinner.

$10.00 or $2.00 30 min driving door to door or 30 min train ride plus travel time to and from the train station twice each leg of travel.

Currently it economically doesnt add up.

mgd03/27 09:55 AM

The link didnt copy correctly. Its an Amtrack Schedule from Raleigh to Durham.

Cost $5.00 each way.
Travel time 34 min there 39 min back.

Add a “
” where you want a paragraph break, but take out the quotes.

mgd03/27 09:57 AM

LOL ok i thought the quotes would make it ignore the break function… Guess I was wrong.

its <.b.r.> with out the periods

GD03/27 12:59 PM

Why would you compare amtracks prices? I’ve never ridden on a subway where I spent more than 2 bucks each way…In NYC or DC

hackles1003/27 01:04 PM

Yeah, I think the idea would be to increase ridership with cheaper prices ($1-2 each way for commuters)

Its not really helpful to look at current AmTrak pricing.

mgd03/27 04:14 PM

I think it is relevant to my point. The option is currently available via rail, granted there arent many option of departure/ arrival times.

Like I said before people like time and money. With the smallest amount of effort. For a $10 round trip you would rather keep your money and drive. On the other hand if it saved me 2hours each way I would consider taking it. I value time more than money.

Charlotte does have a light rail track. 9.6 miles cost $3.00 round trip. 2008 was their first full year of operation and 4,975,000 one way trips. The Charlotte metro area population is 2,277,074. On average thats one round trip per person last year.

ChiefJoJo03/27 06:25 PM

^ I have no idea why you are quoting Amtrak schedules in a conversation about mass transit. Amtrak is cost-effective over long distances, such as to Charlotte—not Durham (obviously). Most transit providers charge around $1.50-2/trip. For people that don’t have a car, don’t want to drive or pay for parking, etc., this is a good option… even more so when gas prices climb again.

Rail is a 100+ year investment towards an economically and environmentally sustainable future. But even looking at one year, by every measure (ridership vs projections, economic development, public support), the Charlotte Lynx has been a success. We can do the same here if we choose to do it. Simple as that.

Raleigh Indian03/27 08:42 PM

People will support the idea of public transit but will use it only when absolutely necessary. The necessity is usually related to availibilty/cost of parking at the destination. Hence airport lines are one of the more popular ones. Other lines are used if there is a concert/sporting event etc at the destination.

mgd03/28 12:06 AM

An average of one trip per person per year doesnt sound like a success to me. The numbers of riders I stated has surpassed their 2025 goal, Yet its ONLY 1 round trip per person @ $3.00. The 16 trains they bought alone cost $52,000,000.

Thats about $6,840,000 from fares alone in the first full year of operation. At that rate it would take 7.6 years just to pay back the cost of 16 trains.

Also Charlotte raised city taxes by .5% to help fund this project. That is widely accepted to be a tax on the poor!

move in03/28 08:37 AM

“until about 60 years ago, when we decided to spend trillions of dollars subsidizing wasteful, auto-only sprawl for decades”

And it continues: http://www.ncdot.gov/projects/i540/

Of course land and houses are cheap in Clayton, Garner, Fuquay Varina, Holly Springs, Apex, and Cary when the rest of the state is subsidizing the $489m driveway (not to mention everything else).

At $489m for concrete, light rail doesn’t seem so outrageous.

mgd03/28 10:55 AM

Yea $489 million dollars is an outrageous number, but so is $462.7 million and $689 million(in 2005 Dollars).

Those dollar amounts would be the actual cost of Chalottes Lynx light rail and Raleighs projected cost in (2005 Dollars).

Raleigh also has projected a similar amount of ridership as Charlottes “success” about 1 round trip per person in the Metro area.

So for the same ratio of riders to population as Charlotte and it cost 226.3 million more. And thats just projected cost not actual so it will cost more. The Lynx more than double in price from the original proposed price.

Highways are good. They not only car personal vehicles but also commercial ones too. So if a commercial vehicle can get from point A to B fast (that would be Time that people like) it saves money on tangible goods(that would be Money that people like.

Currently a light rail system will not save time or money.

Im not against train as a way commuting I just think that the valid factual reason I have stated, it currently will not be cost effective.

ChiefJoJo03/31 10:40 PM

^ Yet building more roads does zero for oil dependence, energy efficiency, sustainable development, transportation & urban living choices, improving public heath, cleaner air, return on investment in TOD ($billions). Light rail has proven it can bring about all of those things very nicely.

You get what you pay for. We have spent trillions on road expansion, and around here probably tens of billions around here… while basically excluding mass transit as a viable means of transport for 60 years (before which we actually had a viable streetcar system, pre 1940s). It’s not rocket science people. Any number of cities have shown us the way…

arthurb304/01 11:00 AM

You’ll have to force people to use trains by not building roads and by increasing taxes on cars and gasoline. Its only then will people consider trains as a deal to save time and money.

HelenTart04/02 07:59 AM

(”——” is my paragraph break if mgd’s code doesn’t work.)

——Our region is the fastest growing region in the nation. Where do anti-transit folks propose putting another half-a-million cars?

——Every person that is willing to ride a train or a bus removes one single occupancy vehicle from the road. It doesn’t have to be either mass transit or roads. This region needs both.

——Government spending the money on rail is a promise to developers that the transit service will stay in the location of the rail. It gives the developers the confidence to invest in the kind of mixed-use development that leads to reducing the need for using a personal vehicle. Thus leaving even more space on the roads for auto-bound.

——We need a balanced answer. Right now it is almost all roads—here anyway. Is a penny on $2.00 too much to spend to help create that balance?

arthurb308/25 12:06 PM

http://www.azcentral.com/news/traffic/lightrail/lightraildex.html

Phoenix Light Rain, quiet electric trains

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Jedidiah Wednesday, March 25, 2009