Moore Square Already City’s Living Room
Moore Square Revamp
I’ve had the unique opportunity to work in the Moore Square, to see it operate as part of the Farmer’s Market. Which, incidentally, (at the direction of the same Downtown Alliance that spearheaded this plan) will move to City Plaza next year. After participating in some of the discussions on this forum, I’ve paid more attention to the Square’s activity. This is what I’ve learned:
Kids play in Moore Square. They tumble, and explore its trees and softly tufted grass. It is used by people walking, sitting, reading, watching, relaxing, and more. All of the things you’d expect the city’s premier public space to do. Most of our major, outdoor, events are held in the square, including New Years, Artsplosure, the World Beer Fest, and more. People enjoy the Square, they come down for lunch, walk around and enjoy the trees. A lot more people than you might believe.
So, when the Mayor asked “Are you convinced you have what it takes to turn this park into a unique public space?” It was very hard to understand. What if we already think it is pretty nifty. We understand it could use some work, sure, but nothing this fancy, nothing that will distract us from the larger goal of working diligently to create a downtown culture. A culture that would support this unique public space as the cornerstone of a sustainable neighborhood. Admittedly, that’s more difficult.
Wouldn’t it be prudent to hire a well-established (hopefully local) design firm to do the job in a few months so we could construct it in Winter 2009-10 instead of having a design in March or April when the Square really comes to life? Where do the options for construction, especially fiscally reasonable ones, come from? It’s one of the few places downtown that has mature Oak trees. It is a very open space, you can see both sides from all directions, and that can’t go. Sure, it could be updated, but do you really want to completely remove all traces of the historic park grid? And Nash Square, itself recently cleaned up, is one of the least used public spaces in the city, despite seemingly having more benefits nearby than Moore Square. How does Moore avoid a similar fate?
There are also logistical loopholes that seem eerily glossed over in the hype. The Square is not owned by the city. As the press releases all seem to condition “The State of North Carolina, which owns Moore Square, will have to agree to the final design before construction could begin.” There isn’t much certainty in the City’s language that seems to imply they already have a tacit understanding with the state on this issue. Ask Plensa what somebody else ultimately controlling the decision can do.
Why isn’t the city talking directly about the Parks and Rec department taking over the Square? Their parks all seem much better taken care of than Moore Square, and that alone may fix the problems at hand, at a much more reasonable cost.
It should be noted, the best recent opportunity to really revitalize the square has passed: the sale of the former City Market (Greenshields, et al) building last year. The City could have bought it in the hope of revitalizing its original purpose, a Market, home to a myriad of different vendors and passionate people-while also functioning as an ad hoc grocery. Now the space will be filled with a banquet hall, whose infrequent and focused use won’t contribute much constant life to the square. Don’t believe a market can revitalize a downtown? Ask Columbus, Ohio, or Boston, or San Francisco for that matter, who turned to a market to revitalize a formerly empty spaces. Yes, people didn’t used to go to the Wharf in Boston either. Our Downtown market will soon be moving to City Plaza.
A redesign of the park doesn’t eliminate what seems to be the subtext of all of these discussions. There are homeless in the square, but they don’t bother anybody. Go to Rittenhouse square in Philadelphia or Washington Square in New York and you’ll see homeless. Beyond that, ours are actually quite nice. Short of putting up a fence and requiring everybody own a home in Raleigh to enter the park, there is no way to eliminate what almost every ‘supportive’ opinion seems to think justifies the city’s expenses: the shuffling of the homeless. Maybe if there were more people who were proximate to the park and using the park daily, they wouldn’t stick out so much. It’s a poor excuse, and its one we have to grow up from as we continue to mature as a City.
So it is important to remember that no matter how pretty Moore Square ultimately is, it doesn’t remove all of the buildings in the block immediately East of the park. That seems to be where most of the city’s prejudices lie. Why doesn’t the city support a design competition that redevelops that block to compliment Moore Square? At present, in the eight blocks that are either adjacent or cattycorner to the square, only City Market and the Transit center sides have multiple, vigorous uses. Three of the eight are institutions. Two have parking lots facing the square. None have much residential and there are few services nearby to support a living room park. There is one place near the park to get a lunch you can eat in the park, no places near the park to buy a newspaper, and night-life spots always seem to have difficulty if they aren’t on Blount St.
The decision to spend so much time, money, mental capacity, and pomp over the redevelopment of a healthy urban environment is irresponsible. No matter the implications of a better designed square, no matter the glossing over real issues a competition for the square somehow hides, the City’s recent troubles have all been about money. Raleigh’s main website on the day of the announcement featured four Moore Square press releases, but they were below the top, larger, press release: “City Manager’s Proposed Budget Cuts Spending.” Does the city sincerely believe, sometime in 2010 it’s going to have the capital funds to pay for a competition-derived design? And if those funds, and control of the square, can’t be assured now, the competition serves to distract attention from other, more pressing needs Downtown, like a structural simplification of our urban development procedures.
If you don’t believe me, come down and actually experience the square at the Moore Square Farmers’ Market, Wednesdays from 10:30am - 2pm.
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Politics , Other posts by Brad J.
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Moore Square Mayor Meeker Plensa Parks and Rec Farmer's Market Moore Square Farmers' Market
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arthurb3
06/19 01:27 PM
Agreed. Do people really want it to be sterilized and made boring. The mixed crowds are what give it interest. If the bus station ever moves to its new “transmodal” station between Glenwood and Hargett Moore’s Square would be pretty boring.
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T-Plain
06/19 01:53 PM
It ain’t broke and I still am not quite sure why it is being fixed.
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Michael
06/19 02:15 PM
A lot could be accomplished by somehow relocating the sidewalk garbage collection from the restaurants on the west end of the park. It’s disgusting to walk by, much less try to eat at a sidewalk table there.
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guest
06/19 02:24 PM
I for one think Moore Square is a sad non-relaxing place. I don’t care if homeless people are there, but I think it makes no sense to marshall all of the resources for serving and helping the homeless around the bus station and Moore Square, because like it or not it makes people feel uncomfortable. Say what you will but most studies show poverty is only a small part of homelessness and that mental illness can often play a larger role. Having such a concentration of homelessness makes people with families or people that just want to read a book without being bothered avoid Moore Square because the mentally ill can be unpredictable if not treated. That’s not heartless and its not morally wrong, its just a fact. In fact I think its wrong just to accept them and say they have a right to be there without really asking what we can do prevent them from sitting around the park all day so they can have prodcutive lives like those with a roof over their heads. I say, plant some softer grass, add a water feature and work to move the resources for the homeless to a place that is better for all parties invovlved. Maybe a place with lots of land so that the homeless can work in gardens and contribute the handouts they are being given. This would certainly help provide a feeling of self worth and vitality that could help move some of them into a real home. As it is now, many just sit all day looking to get enough change so that they can buy some beer and piss in one of the parking decks. For that matter why doesn’t Raleigh use some of the empty lots to start community gardens and require those that are receiving food and shelter to spend time cultivating these lots. We need more of that, I’m tired of society just turning a blind eye and accepting that people should be able to sit around all day. We need to help them but creating programs where they can at least in part help themselves.
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Jimmy
06/19 02:41 PM
Great article! We really need a better coordinated effort that includes the blocks surrounding Moore Square. That was a shame the city didn’t get involved in revitalizing the old Greenshields space as a true city market. As a banquet hall, it doesn’t seem to be serving the city’s residents effectively.
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Brad J
06/19 02:42 PM
So, a more complex solution is necessary, which is the point.
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Jenna
06/19 02:47 PM
@Michael: That’s the best idea for Moore Square I’ve heard yet. The garbage bins are disgusting! Such a simple change that would make a huge difference!
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JeffS
06/19 02:54 PM
EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT article. I’m glad to see someone else standing up and saying what I’ve been thinking and saying since the redesign discussions started.
To the “guest”... I feel like you, along with many others, are mixing issues here. The park and the homeless are different issues. Saying, “we’ll push them out—and they should be somewhere better anyway” seems to be fake concern. If we wanted to help the homeless, we would, then we might not have to push them out.
Like Brad, I don’t see that it’s a problem. That some people are uncomfortable is not evidence that there is a problem. For example, remove the homeless, and bring residents to sit (one by one) at the bus station for an hour and see how many people are uncomfortable. Some people are just always going to be uncomfortable around people that don’t look like themselves.
In a way it’s funny that this has drawn so much attention. The amount of money available for this project rules out a massive overhaul. Unfortunately, it doesn’t prevent someone from doing something truly idiotic - along the lines of cutting down the remaining trees, or putting a fence around it.
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mark
06/19 03:00 PM
“Wouldn’t it be prudent to hire a well-established (hopefully local) design firm to do the job in a few months… The decision to spend so much time, money, mental capacity, and pomp over the redevelopment of a healthy urban environment is irresponsible.”
Dear Brad J,
Before reading your opinion piece, I thought your argument was going for preservation, but you are simply spreading fear and ignorance. The decision to spend mental capacity on a subject is NEVER irresponsible. -
Betsy
06/19 03:14 PM
Good piece. Nothing is fundamentally wrong with the design of the square—it’s the *block faces around it* that need to be transformed.
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The *streets around it* need to be calmed so that the sidewalk interface across the street can fully engage with the square—instead of being severed from it by three lanes of roaring one-way traffic.
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And the *uses surrounding it* need to be those uses that both benefit from and themselves enhance a public park - residences, restaurants, public markets, retail storefronts, art galleries, and so forth. -
Phillo
06/19 03:18 PM
“For example, remove the homeless, and bring residents to sit (one by one) at the bus station for an hour and see how many people are uncomfortable.”
Are the residents going to ask passersby for a cigarette or two dollars or maybe direct an incoherent tirade at someone in their sight line? Are the residents going to be asleep or drunk?
You can’t apply some Disney Hobo fantasy and say that the homeless are just like everyone else. While it varies from individual to individual - they may be mentally ill or just plain lazy - they are still a nuisance.
That said, cities have homeless people. That is unavoidable. My concern about Moore Square is whether we can pack it full of people every weekend and manage the inevitable wear and tear to keep it from looking run down when it is not in heavy use. That is what I’d like to see addressed in the redesign. -
JeffS
06/19 04:14 PM
“Are the residents going to ask passersby for a cigarette or two dollars or maybe direct an incoherent tirade at someone in their sight line? Are the residents going to be asleep or drunk?”
You even quoted where I said REMOVE THE HOMELESS. My point, again, being that most of the complainers are too politically correct to talk truthfully about what they’re really scared of.
To answer your question though… are you describing the homeless, or the “good people” of glenwood south on a Saturday night? I can’t tell.
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Phillo
06/19 05:33 PM
Jeff S. : Rereading your comment, it does appear that I missed your point entirely. Although I would say that its the actions of the homeless that piss people off more than just their outward appearance.
You are right that people annoyed and fed up with the homeless are pussy footing around the issue and won’t just come out and say what they think.Although, re:Homeless vs. Glenwood South patrons: when the homeless start dumping a ton of money into the local economy they too may find the locals not only abiding them, but catering to them
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roi
06/19 06:31 PM
Very good analysis Brad J. good article.
Your statement in the article is to the point,i.e, “....it’s already a pretty niffty place…it could use some work, sure, but nothing fancy…” -
WiseOne
06/19 06:37 PM
My vote for best Moore Square article yet on NR. And the comments way higher brow than what I usually sling. But note to Jimmy…the city used to own city market in the eighties (there used to be fruit and veg stands there) and in turn sold it to private developers. This is why we have what we have today, like it or not. Maybe the city should sell the square and then it wouldn’t be a moral issue to ‘clean’ up the area…just a (private) business decision, you know No Home No Service.
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daw
06/19 07:20 PM
I agree that an opportunity was lost with City Market (Greenshields, et al). It could have been modeled after Reading Terminal Market in Philadelphia. Many suggestions for redesigning Moore Square and other public spaces (ex. Dorothea Dix) in Raleigh are attempts to satisfy everyone - a children’s playground in one corner, a dog park in another, a stage for concerts etc. For Moore Square - keep it simple and natural, with excellent design and quality materials, and leave the large trees. This article mentions Rittenhouse Square in Philly. It is a beautiful public square. Why not replicate the basic layout of great squares in the Northeast and Europe and add unique details?
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Alex
06/20 12:55 AM
I’ve been to Moore Square a lot. IMO, it could use a little cleaning up.
By that I mean a lot of uneven brick work and some of the foliage could use tending to.
Out of all the “urban” parks I’ve been to in NC, I think Greensboro’s outdoes most others. I think it’s a good balance between trees, grassy resting areas, and amazing water features.
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Sallie
06/20 12:56 AM
Just to clear up a little tidbit from the article/public perception, the main City Market building did not just sell last year. Michael Haken, absentee landlord from all the way out in sunny CA, has owned the property, and I believe all the other buildings in the City Market “complex” since 1995 (and I believe he bought them from his daddy, a noteable Chapel Hill architect).
It is true that the building did undergo gutting in preparation for that HORRIFIC idea of a wedding/reception/banquet hall to be run by the Rum Runners folks, but that has sputtered (and mostly stopped) for the longest while now. And now that there are murmurings that Rum Runners is picking up stakes for the other side of downtown…who knows what’s going on.
I agree it’s a crying shame that the building is so thoroughly wasted when it could be put to such viable use, and anchor what is such a lovely part of our downtown. I’m guessing Haken doesn’t need the money.
It might be just me here, but I think having the Farmer’s Market in Moore Square has been, well…strange. While I’m sure there is a decent vendor/shopper turnout each and every week, everyone is totally engulfed in this huge space - and for me, it always imparts a sense that it isn’t very sucessful/low vendor and shopper turnout - it’s a little white speck on this major parcel of land. I’d give anything for them to shut down Blake Street on Market days for a more intimate, cozy, neighborly, community feel. I’m hoping Edelweiss Cafe will jumpstart more of a community vibe in tandem with the other shops/restaurants.
I’d love to see the markets mentioned in other comments as benchmarks - for me, it’s Williamsburg. They have theirs on the first block before the historic area - MAJOR local turnout and very grassroots - and again, that small-scale, neighborly feel, and terrific vendors - herbs, meats, flowers, pastries, and of course loads of fruits and veggies. Certainly not what we expected to find in the midst of a tourist trap.
Moving it to City Plaza also seems super odd…and sterile. I’ll reserve final judgement until I see it, but I just don’t know.
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TSnow27604
06/20 10:23 AM
It’s not like we have something large like Central and Hyde Park where the vast amounts of land offer areas for different uses. Do we want Moore Square to be a park or a music venue? Do we want grass or trampled dead grass or gravel? I say get the downtown music venue up and running on the other side of the civic center and then let’s preserve the oaks and natural space of Moore Square.
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Horatio
06/20 10:48 AM
I totally agree with Sallie that the main city market building is completely wasted as a reception hall for private functions. Last week while I was at Big Ed’s, the owner of that restaurant told me that the city market building is being transformed into a reception hall and a small part might be a Brazilian steakhouse. To be a viable shopping area, city market needs establishments open to the public during the day, not just at night, such as Rum Runners. Also most steakhouses are open only at night as well.
Before Greenshields occupied the city market building, it was used as a food court with a number of different types of food. There was always a crowd there. I guess absentee landlords don’t really care about the best use for the general public.
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myk
06/20 01:58 PM
The main city market building could be set up for lots of little walk-up eating and shopping like Quincy Market in Boston. That redevelopment, some 25-30 years ago, totally revived the area around it. Now people enliven the open space around it. Moore square could be similar if the ‘fix’ is thought of beyond its square.
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JRD
06/20 06:59 PM
I think a lot of people are missing the point. It the newly redesigned park were enough of a draw, that alone would revitalize the areas around the park.
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The Apps
06/21 12:30 PM
I not sure of many know this, but Raleigh used to have four parks…each forming a square around the capital. Two still exist- Moore Square and the park across from the police station The other two- one is a ugly parking lot next two the Governors Mansion and the other I’m not so sure about. As the first person suggested, I like the idea of a garden park at Moore Square. If the two non exisitng parks could some how be resurrected and also formed in to Garden parks it would greating increase the beauty and appeal of downtown Raliegh. More events could be held in the area and more people would go to downtown. As far as the homeless people in the Moore Square area, the city needs to do a better job of helping them. If they can’t hang out in the Moore Square area, than where will they go? They need help and that should be part of the revitalizationof Moore Square.
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TSnow27604
06/21 02:16 PM
The Apps: I like the Moore Square park / garden idea too. A little oasis in the city. And for the record, the Governor’s Mansion is on Burke Square and #4 is Caswell Square which is now covered with state agency buildings. Pretty sure it’s where the D of Ag - Plant Industry, DOC, and Community College buildings are located.
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JeffS
06/21 04:52 PM
Joe you’re spot on with most of your observations.
The concern that I have is that these people, the ones that will never come downtown, are the group of people complaining about the homeless, and asking for “destination parks” that they also won’t visit.
I guess I agree though. If you want to live in a community that has effective city planning, public spaces, transit and activities…. move.
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Ken Metzger
06/22 10:45 AM
One can really only do so much with Moore Square. I mean it is only one square block. The most it could handle is probably better lighting and a fountain. I wouldn’t mind Martin St. being bricked over to create a connection between Moore Square and City Market.
What the city really needs to do is create more park space while it can. We have several empty lots and even entire blocks. A portion of these need to be saved as parks or they will be lost to development for forever. -
Matthew Brown
06/22 02:47 PM
Excellent article!
Moore Square is beautiful as it is, with mature trees, historic light fixtures, and nice plantings. It’s open, shady, and charming. And it has the beloved acorn.
The grass looks a little shabby after being trampled during various events, but that is one of the purposes of the park. It’s not a design issue. Some people are put off by the concentration of homeless, but that’s not a design issue. The nearby buildings may be underutilized, but that’s not a design issue. And as Betsy mentioned, Blount & Person Sts could benefit from being made two-way.
In fact, it looks like the one problem Moore Square does NOT have is its design!
Preserve Historic Moore Square!
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Abbey
06/22 04:20 PM
I would LOVE to see something like the Fenway Victory Gardens in Boston near Fenway Park happen in Moore Square. Granted, our block of land is much smaller, but the number of people living in DTR is much smaller than this area in Boston. With these gardens, they offer more than 500 plots of 15’ by 25’ for members to create their own garden…be it flowers, fruits, vegetables, whatever. The $30 annual membership helps maintain the area and the people who have their gardens spend tons of time there tending to it. Not only would this create funding for the upkeep of the area, it would drive people down into the area, stimulate local businesses, and would allow those in the area who want to have gardens a space to do that…while beautifying the block. Who knows, maybe it would boost the weekly farmers market.
Now, people having gardens would definitely conflict with the same space holding concerts, but a girl can dream…
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arthurb3
06/22 05:25 PM
Abbey- You can actually do that at the historic site in Mordicai. You can sign up to work a piece of the histoic gardens at the plantation and its free.
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Betsy
06/23 12:50 AM
A commenter on the success of Rittenhouse Square writes, “There are three distinct attributes that make Rittenhouse work. The first, and most important, is that it is exactly positioned at the boundary between a dense residential district and the city’s retail and financial district, so that it is constantly being traversed by people moving between the two.” (Jane Jacobs documents the effect very precisely in her great work, The Death and Life of Great American Cities.)
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“The second is that the buildings surrounding it are in beautiful scale with the width of the square (they feel about as tall as the square is wide, though they’re not really), so that they form a “wall” around the square and give it a sense of enclosure, just like a room (all great squares do this, but not many in the US).”
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“Third, Paul Cret’s masterful plan, which criss-crosses the park with uninterrupted diagonals as well as more circuitous but still geometric paths, beautifully accommodates both the purposeful route of the pedestrian and the leisurely route of the idler, with plenty of spots for the two to interact. “
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“Perhaps just as interesting as what the park has is what it DOESN’T have: no pointless stairs, changes of elevation, waterfalls, berms, bollards or other landscaping histrionics so favored in trying to accessorize American urban spaces. In fact, there are precious few actual landscaping features other than walks, benches, trees, flower beds and a small ornamental pool that sometimes has water in it.” -
daw
06/23 10:27 AM
I hate to say it, but knowing Raleigh as I do, the redesign will probably include a lot of pressure-treated timber borders, pine straw or mulch, cheap cement pavers, asphalt paths (like the current design!) and other low quality materials (like the Fayetteville Street sidewalks). Then six to ten years later, there will be a need for another redesign. There always seem to be a lack of funds for enduring design and quality, but they are available to redo at ten year intervals.
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JeffS
06/23 10:38 AM
What, you don’t like pine straw
I’m waiting for the design proposal from State. We’d just brick the whole thing over.
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Jess
06/23 04:51 PM
the homeless people aren’t that bad…man up and tell them to leave you alone…every city is gonna have them…most are nice….i hang out on the west side of that block just about as much as the homeless do (consider that my drinking problem)...you get to know their names and have small talk with them…it’s not that bad…go ahead and shelter your kids from the real world…geez….......
solution to moore square: astro turf… :o)
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WiseOne
06/25 06:58 PM
>the Apps, yeah Raleigh did have four squares and the state took two of them. Moore Square’s northern compliment is the Governor’s Mansion and Nash Square’s northern compliment (formerly Caswell Square) is the cluster of office bldgs. in front of Quiznos. Raleigh is the only planned state capital city in the US and that’s why we have the squares, by design. Glad we still have two.
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Shannon
07/01 06:32 PM
I think Raleigh needs to fight becoming yet another generic middle-American city with everything that we’ve got.
There needs to be some control over the homeless loitering - its making people not want to hang out there, but there’s no reason to completely gentrify and erase all the flavor.
As a local downtown woman I admit that I don’t walk through the park alone at night. And I do experience regular solicitations for money and lewd comments from the Moore Square peanut gallery during my daily commute to work. But honestly, the hoards of drunken suburbanites loosed on the city at events like Downtown Live frighten me more.
There’s some improvements that need to be made, but sanitizing/gentrifying is not the solution.
As we continue to revitalize our city let’s not forget to keep it cool and interesting. -
ray cooter
07/04 06:08 PM
i thinks about this stuffs everyday all my times. i aint done nothin today. alls i did was go and get that pizza. ate it in my beds wirth the dog.
go raleigfh!!! -
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07/23 05:51 PM
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Raleigh Citizens
10/16 05:49 PM
The competition winners have been decided, see what the jury passed on:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/43392181@N04/sets/72157622569955664/
To clarify, these submissions did not win and did not receive honorable mentions.
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Divillabiss
12/05 03:30 PM
Michael Haken Is A Great Guy.He Helps Many People And Always Has.
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