North Hills v3.0 Beta

Scott
08/17 04:22 AM

Thank god I live in Uptown Raleigh. I think it is funny that people in North Hills actually think us folks over in the Crabtree area actually WANT to be associated with the term “Midtown”. As this article clearly points out, North Hills Mall is nothing but a sad recreation of the movie “Demolition Man”. Who knew you could gentrify a grassy scrap of land into a Midwesterner’s vision of the “Goof Life”?

Bravo, great article! I can’t wait to walk on the new Greenway connector to the new Westin from my house. Suckers…

Aaron
08/17 05:50 PM

Little boxes on the hillside
Little boxes made of ticky-tacky
Little boxes on the hillside, little boxes all the same

There’s a green one, a pink one, a blue one and a yellow one
And they’re all made out of ticky-tacky and they all look just the same

me
08/18 12:55 AM

tonight my girlfriend asked me to name all of the places i thought were well-designed in raleigh…it was a challenge…

i could only say the museum because of the barbara kruger amphitheatre…and a few modernist homes in the area…but that’s all i could think of that makes the city look great! there was a great little gas station on hillsborough (across from chargrill)that recently got stripped of all of its unique character and now it looks like a bad movie theatre…the gourmet factory on western recently renovated over the 70’s-pizza parlour triangular entrance, but only added an awful putty-colored facade and box to cut off the triangle..it’s an aesthetic train wreck…the beautiful blue-windowed office building downtown is getting demolished…all of the places with quirkiness are getting destroyed…

it got me thinking that this place has a real identity problem. with solas kicking out people in sandals on monday nights and brooklyn heights banning topsiders, i am really starting to get frustrated with raleigh because it is trying to take on a big city attitude and it is losing its potential coolness…

it is starting to remind me of the kid in grade school who was on welfare, but had air jordans…it isnt smart enough to know what it should be doing and it isnt mature enough to find it’s own style using what it already has…

new raleigh should ask their readers to name what makes raleigh great…besides the greenways and overall quality of living, which is great…but what gives raleigh its raleighness? this north hills crap is popping up all over the country and its truman show-esque qualities are repulsive…why doesnt raleigh do something that really makes it stand out??? why is it so scared? the things we do now could really make a lasting impression and give us our identity…why are we so lame?

i love it here, but i had never really thought about how soul-less this place is. there is nothing that makes us stand out..even with our great history.

GB
08/18 05:18 PM

“The exterior decorating of the expansion is for the most part the same kitschy postmodernist bullshit, though slightly simplified from what’s across the street… by just a hair, enough for a slight sigh of relief at this stage in the Kane game. Then again, there’s this horrid-looking thing, which blindly reaffirms that we are, in fact, the time’s new Romans.”

Reading this and the accompanying “labeled” picture made me laugh out loud at my desk:)

DD
08/18 08:59 PM

Dude.. ALL of the accompanying links with this story made me laugh so hard.  Have to apologize to my cubicle neighbors.  I do hope that something “different” comes of the new piece of property.  I’m simply tired of the bland artistic vision of the developers in our area.

JZ
08/18 09:24 PM

You know, everyone on this damn blog is a bunch of design snobs.  North Hills is where EVERYONE loves to go on a nice sunny day in Raleigh!  I mean, when you think of Raleigh, don’t YOU visualize a zombie-fied, homogenized spectrum of the population enjoying their ben & jerry’s while their white-bread little children are being numbed into an imagination wasteland by hired buskers (isn’t that like military intelligence, etc., etc.?)? I just LOVE my 42” flatscreen y’all!  And since when did a building have to do anythin’ but hold up my flatscreen?  Beige is SUCH a perfect color.  Not too contrasty when I watch my Oprah.  Who cares if its real (or if its Memorex)!  If I wanted space outside of my 3/4 acre back yard or house, I’d get a second home at the beach or the mountains…zeesh!

go go girl
08/19 12:22 AM

The Levittowns and the GI Bill pretty much transformed America - a new living paradigm was conceived and people flocked to it for a reason. It gave them alternatives and choices that previously had been limited to people of “means”. A single family home with “gardens”- a miniature version of “the manor-born” life style and they were finally able to cast off the last shackles of the lower-class chains. And because there was land to be had - way more than in Europe - it was all based on the car.

Just as breast-feeding was seen by many in the 50s, 60s and 70s as something “lower class” women did, the idea of going back to walking, multi-family housing, attached dwellings, mass-transit, might be felt as a giant step backward to some. People of means, of culture, of sophistication own cars and live a life that is a tiny reproduction of the super rich.

And now - just as breast feeding has come full circle and the true benefits are understood and respected, the concepts of urbanism and smart growth are now being broadcast far and wide - along with evils of homogenized, suburban cul-de-sac culture. Mimicking the rich requires a lot of oil.

Subsequently, when grandmas were denied the opportunity to give the baby a bottle a very delicate dance had to be done. Trying hard not to insult what had not only been ‘good enough’ but more to the point - had been an actual ‘step up’ on the cultural ladder.

And that step up came from a strong desire to improve their lives, to do better, and to give their children ‘presumed’ advantages that would permit the upward mobility to continue. And it was all based on cheap oil.

The suburban lifestyle is chosen for reasons that may not be all that valid, not all that healthy and certainly not well appreciated on this forum but IMO constantly disregarding, minimizing and insulting the fears and motivations is not the way to go about changing anything.

By all means - make the suburban life-style pay their own way - stop making the car the only consideration within development, work towards incorporating smart growth and clever design into various facets of life and more importantly, lead by example.

But telling grandma she was an ignorant, fear-based, social climbing fool for not breast-feeding her children will not go over well -  and neither does constantly insulting the people who choose the suburbs.

JZ
08/19 01:08 AM

Thanks for the lecture. Contrary to popular belief, there’s been experts and laypeople alike trying to explain to the general population the “dangers” of suburban morphology going back almost 60 years.  I’m tired of the suggestion that to make jests at the american suburban cultural landscape is somehow either a) not politically correct or b) unsympathetic to the average person.  “Because you didn’t know better” didn’t cut it when you stuck your finger in a light socket when you were a child, started smoking when you were 14 or bought an SUV at 32. There is no excuse for it in any part of life. Wake the hell up and pay attention.  This is not an elitist position, merely one that is trying to get more in tune with empirical and scientific experience.

ChiefJoJo
08/19 02:29 AM

I really like this blog.  Really do.  I also know it’s run by among others, some design school grads & architects.  That’s cool.  But in the race to provide the next scathing critique of everything that isn’t up to par with New Raleigh design standards, you loose a lot of what’s being done that is positive for this city.  Yes, I want good urban infill projects designed superbly with all the proper architectural bell and whistles, and I appreciate NR’s desire to push the envelope.  But, while New Raleigh criticizes projects like Cresent at Cameron Village and North Hills, it (1) completely avoids the myriad community benefits of good urban form/infill and (2) this blog punts on all of the suburban crap that is thrown up daily out near Wakefield, Brier Creek, etc.  Last I checked, that is Raleigh too.

The way I look at it, for every acre of solid urban infill development that is proposed ITB, there are probably 100 acres of additional suburban wasteland going up elsewhere, and nary a peep from this blog that I’ve seen.  I challenge NR’s editors to take a broader look at what they choose to critique and what to ignore, and why.

packpigskinfan25
08/19 09:03 AM

What ChiefJoJo said!

This blog only seems to point out the negative about these areas, and not the positive!

p.b.rogers
08/19 01:12 PM

Is that what ChiefJoJo said? I think you may want to read that comment again.

Also, I don’t know if anyone else noticed, but the author clearly pointed out several positives of the North Hills expansion in the second paragraph, so I’m not sure where “completely avoids the… benefits” comes from.

When are you people going to stop blindly accepting what’s built in this town?

(I would also echo Chief’s notion that NR take a hard look at “suburban wasteland going up elsewhere” ie: far OTB)

smitty
08/19 01:16 PM

Wow, what a great place for a park!

go go girl
08/19 05:22 PM

The additional acreage does have some tremendous connectivity potential with the existing greenway system. There is a creek on the property that goes under the Beltline into Crabtree Creek – and North into Eastgate Park.

Michael
08/19 07:39 PM

I’m beginning to think this site is just a place for “us” to criticize and caricature “them”, such as when I was called a frappucinno sipping, SUV-driving pansy for suggesting that Raleigh bus stops needed a little TLC.
I agree that North Hills is a ridiculous ersatz shop-town, but is it really necessary to snidely make fun of it and everything else that isn’t Design School-approved or so hip nobody’s ever heard of it?
Suffice it to say, North Hills is an uninspired pastiche, but recognizing that doesn’t make me or anyone else morally superior. It just means I don’t prefer the way it looks and I won’t live there.

GR
08/20 01:13 PM

Can they really still call it “The City of Oaks” if there aren’t any trees left?

corey3rd
08/20 03:02 PM

We’re turning into a Mall-Town society. I’m just going to guess that on the 65 acres Kane will have a WalMart, Kohls, Costco, Ross, Home Depot, Lowes, Kroger, Whole Foods, Best Buy and Circuit City. Maybe they can build another Target on the site for those of us who don’t want to make a left hand turn to go to the old Target.

Kane and his gang of vultures don’t understand what it means to live in Raleigh, North Carolina. They’re too busy forcing their lame “Midtown Manhattan” concept on us. Without live sex shows, what’s the point of Manhattan? We’re just being blanded away.

North Hills Mall is Soul City Jr.

Arthur
08/20 05:05 PM

I agree with Smitty. What a great place for a park!!!

AG
08/22 05:34 PM

For all that Brier Creek shopping center absolutely terrifies me, I can excuse it because it is on the outskirts of town. My parents live way out in northwest Raleigh (closer to Durham than downtown Raleigh) and they love Brier Creek. But I moved inside the beltline because I didn’t want to live in a suburban paradise lined with faux Charlestonian row houses, or satisfy all my shopping needs at Super WalMart. It seems like the people who (because of money, connections, and extremely valuable property) control development ITB are old Raleigh types (for a visual see the link above that shows two dozen Talbots-clad white people mulling around in front of the Q Shack) who like their Suburbans and back yards but will never give up their coveted ITB property (which shows status, is near the country clubs and good schools and the restaurants they’ve been going to for years, etc.) to move to the fringe of town, where suburbia should be located. Instead, they bring the suburban lifestyle to them. And they’re the ones spending the money, so I guess this works out well for developers and businesses. But hopefully those of us who have a different vision for Raleigh (about which we’re passionate enough to whine on message boards) will be able, through avenues like this blog, to join forces and exert some influence. That said, I hope I’m not perpetuating the “Us vs. Them” attitude. I think if we’re serious about this vision it requires collaborating with some of the most powerful people in Raleigh.

Michael
08/22 10:00 PM

I think part of the problem is the emphasis on having a lifestyle rather than on living a life. We’re viewing ourselves and the suburbanites in overly cohesive terms. There are other possible reasons that someone would live in these areas or, more likely, shop at these places other than pure choice. I’m just struck by the moralistic tone so many of these discussions take. I think it’s possible, and more beneficial, to offer criticism about design choices when it comes to these buildings and “communities” than it is to criticize the people that live and shop in them. Let’s get this site back on track.

DPK
08/24 12:47 PM

I didn’t know this place was run by Design School students.  That explains a lot now that I think about it.

corey3rd
08/24 01:54 PM

that patch of astroturf in the middle of North Hills is so sad and pathetic.

Jennifer
08/24 02:40 PM

They put a no left turn sign up heading N on Six Forks where you can turn into Target without waiting through the ridiculously long light.  I do it anyway! It makes me feel like an insider to know it used to be legal, and even better it makes me feel a little subversive. 

We need to keep sticking it to the man! 

But actually, little rebellions are just cheap thrills for the individual.  Changing the American mainstream so that it demands sustainable, well-designed buildings and communities is what will stop this argument once and for all.  No easy task, but building partnerships starts with listening, not polarizing. We’ve got a vague notion of the ideal, but laying it out and making it reality would probably require some compromise.  The developers of North Hills got it done and it is working.  Might be tough to sell them on the idea that they should incorporate a little beauty, style and hipness.

DPK
08/24 04:28 PM

@corey3rd:
I think they put the astroturf there due to it being very high traffic.  Also parts of the year they have staging on that location as well, so regular grass would probably just die because it’d be covered up.

@Jennifer:
Remember your wonderful “subversive” feeling when you cause a traffic accident there and it will be your fault for pulling an illegal turn.  It’s not worth it.  Trust me, I’ve been in a few accidents and it’s never worth it.

As for the rest of your comment, I agree.    North Hills is definitely better than the decaying strip mall that was there before.  It’s boosted the economy and development in that area of Raleigh.

Otis
08/24 08:58 PM

North Hills wasn’t a decaying strip mall. It was an indoor mall. One that didn’t require you to sweat as you walked between anchor stores. It was a nice mall until it went to hell because of lame upkeep. But that happens in cycles. One decade this is hot and the next second it’s ghetto.

the fakes grass is pathetic. Why not just layout some shag carpet. When I think of Raleigh, I prefer not to imagine a future of asphalt, concrete and astroturf. Anyone who wants that dream can move to L.A. or Manhattan.

georgia
08/24 10:34 PM

whatever they do, gotta cut those trees….

DPK
08/25 01:44 AM

@Otis:
Oh please you know what I meant, stop being dramatic.

corey3rd
08/25 02:12 AM

Stop being such a drama queen Otis. You know that whatever Kane’s Kingdom becomes, it won’t become overrun by those gangster brats that ruined the Triangle Towne Center. The key to running a good mall in the Triangle is to make sure that element is unwelcome.

Although I did almost hit another Jaywalker who was a middle aged woman who didn’t want to break her stride across six lanes of Six Forks. I hate to say this, but I really can’t wait for those little makeshift memorials to pop up on that road to teach these morons that they need to cross at the lights. Although most of the jaywalkers are so stump dump that speedbump would be a step up on their evolutionary chart.

DPK
08/25 03:05 AM

@corey3rd:
I don’t know what the status of it is, but last I heard the original plans for North Hills East (NH 2) called for a pedestrian bridge over Six Forks to connect NH 1 and 2.  So that should help alleviate your old lady Frogger game in the future. 

corey3rd
08/25 03:17 AM

These idiots don’t care about using the cross walk - do you seriously think they are going to take the pedestrian bridge? Why will they walk all the way down the street when it’s faster for them to just race out into traffic?

Amy
08/25 07:58 PM

Question: what ever happened to the shoe store- Plush?  I heard that the girl running it was so snobby that nobody could stand going in there.  Did she re-open another store in the same location?

Carol
08/25 08:00 PM

Amy, i dont think she has anything to do with the new store.

At least I hope not.  She was not very nice and from what I hear she is a snob.

HelenTart
08/26 01:27 PM

When the new North Hills became a success, I was encouraged because it proved that the downtown concept of development was valid.

Now as North Hills seems to be marching across city, it just becomes competition for all the effort that is going into revitalizing the real downtown.

All we can do is wait and see what John Kane has in store for the property. Ultimately, I think Raleigh is better off with John Kane than with other possible developers.

Jeff S
08/26 06:07 PM

Let’s see…

- residential space
- office space
- a grocery store
- farmer’s market on the weekend (I know… not the best)
- coffee
- multiple dining establishments across a variety of price ranges
- gym and theater
- a place to buy misc. household items
- close proximity to serveral parks
- walking/cycling distance from the three schools that serve the area
- close proximity to the largest continuous greenway in Raleigh

You guys are right. That sounds horrible.

Using our tax dollars to subsidize random and visionless downtown development does sound much better.

For once I wish we would could focus on daily living in Raleigh as opposed to our weekend special attractions. I’m not a huge fan of what Kane is doing, but it’s a better vision than anyone else is implementing around here.

Sorry for the rant. I’ll let you return to pondering how the RBC spire or CC shimmer wall have improved your quality of life.

lunarvision
08/26 06:47 PM

@ Jeff S. - well, said.

BTW - a pedestrian bridge would be a wise & visually unique addition, but given this city’s history of watering down architectural innovation (even a bridge), i won’t hold my breath.

corey3rd
08/26 07:05 PM

the only two pedestrian bridges I’ve seen in this area are the one over the Beltline near Meredith and the one over the expanded US 1 in Cary. I’ve never seen a single person walking across the one in Cary. And I rarely see anyone using the one across the beltline.

Once you put up a bridge, you limit what can be brought down Six Forks road. You also limit expansion of the road - it needs to go up to 10 lanes.

Jeff S
08/26 07:43 PM

So build it to span 10 lanes. I’m not sure what you intend to tear down to make room for the additional three though.

I’m sure Kane will be footing the bill regardless, so don’t worry about it. They’ll still allow you to drive from one side of the road if that makes you feel better.

corey3rd
08/26 07:58 PM

We’ll end up paying because Kane’s Kingdom - since all this will cause our houses (those of us who live within blasting range of Midtowne!) to be reappraised and our property taxes will soar even higher because a Bagel-eater wants to buy fresh carrots while standing on astroturf.

I drive by the terra-stripped section of North Hills expansion with the massive parking decks (which he lied about being able to build) and I get that sickening feeling that this is Godless activity of nothing but asphalt, concrete and astroturf. Is this really a City of Oaks project? It looks like one of those crummy mall towns that you see off I-95 or around Charlotte.

how I dare I not embrace the 21st Century strip mall that wants to be the warm cocoon. Kane knows what’s best for us all.

DPK
08/26 10:32 PM

@corey3rd:
NO, that road does NOT need to be 10 lanes.  We need to stop spending money on constantly supporting an auto-centric lifestyle.

Besides, there’s no room for that road to add more lanes.  It’s kind of locked in at this point.

Enigma
08/27 01:27 AM

Why is Raleigh so void of advocates that promote the principles of Smart Growth?  Try a Googling the subject.  The search results are shamefully void of local private money examples, with the exception of NH.  Raleighites place higher importance on appearance versus the practical applications of new urbanism smart growth.  I’m not a big fan of North Hills, but at least Kane is actually DOING something most people merely TALK about doing.  I’ll bet the North Hills ULI and CNU awards will be aplenty.

Jeff S
08/27 03:10 AM

corey3rd:

Your house value probably doubled in the course of what… two years? Yea, that sucks. ???

If it’s one thing there’s plenty of in Raleigh it’s isolated suburb for you to move to. You should be able to rather easily net a profit and stay away from development.

corey3rd
08/27 03:49 AM

So Jeffy, we all have to pay higher taxes so you can sip your burnt Starbucks on astroturf. That’s price of progress in a town that’s more concerned about making sure your bagel stuffing mouth is chipmunk full.

Jeff S
08/27 04:34 AM

What’s with the bagel-hate? Did a bagel beat you up when you were a kid or something? That’s sad. I heard about a support group for that. It’s actually great because it meets right after the “kill me, my house doubled in value” group.

Seriously though, if you want to continue the name-calling we should do it in person. I can buy you some some boiled-before-baking dough, or hit you in the head with one, or something.

corey3rd
08/27 04:42 AM

all bagel comments are cultural slurs. Please be completely offended.

AG
08/27 09:46 PM

Corey3rd gets on my nerves but he was right on about Starbucks coffee being burnt. Blech.

BB
08/28 12:03 PM

Heaven forbid there should be any untouched land remaining in the city! why just not leave it untouched, or make it a park. No more urban sprawl needed in an already tightly congested area!

CAM
08/28 03:17 PM

The city has enough parks already. They already want to waste the land that Dix is on by putting another park on that..isn’t Pullen right on the same road? The fact is people don’t like change around here and thats the main reason so many other major southern cities since the post civil war era have surpassed us. Its ok to add modern things to a city and anything without change dies. I agree some things can be left alone to preserve that hometown feel. But too many people around here are afraid of becoming like Charlotte or Atlanta..while I prefer Raleigh to either of the two there are some things that we could learn from the two. IMHO I don’t have a problem with areas like North Hills, Wakefield Brier Creek ect. they are built because they are meant to attract those who find that lifestyle comfortable..if you prefer to, as someone stated, “drink starbucks on astroturf” then do that. If you prefer to have a ranch style home with a big natural yard then by all means do that as well. Raleigh has something here for all. Being a “good ol’boy” Mayberry type of town is not where Raleigh is anymore or headed to whether you like it or not. 

Just my opinion

BB
08/28 04:29 PM

I do agree we are way behind some of those other big cities,and could learn from them, but that is ok….do we need to be one of those big cities? There are many good developments in the area such as Brier Creek and Wakefield that were developed where there was plenty of land to develop, but North Hills is an older neighborhood (I grew up there, near the mall—in a ranch style house with a big natural yard)) and all this building is making a traffic nightmare worse. The area isn’t big enough for all the urban sprawl Kane is trying to fit in there. With the way he is building right up to the road, there will be no more room to widen Six Forks in the area. Six Forks (at the N Hills area) used to be only a 4 lane road with no turn lanes. It has already expanded a few times to meet the growing demands of the North Raleigh area. There is no more room for road expansion, but there will be many more cars in this area with all the growth. Funny thing is, not too many years ago, none of these ‘inside the Beltline Old Raleigh Folks’ would have ever thought of living outside the beltline. It just wasn’t good enough for them. I like some of what he has done, and North Hills needed to be updated, but I think its all being done too fast (and too greedily) without really considering the long-term impact on the area. I think the only think being considered is the long-term impact on Kane’s wallet. Just my opinion.

CAM
08/28 05:58 PM

BB

I agree with you. I don’t think we “need” to be an Atlanta or Charlotte but I think with the type of growth that is going on we need to focus more on the mass transportation aspect to ease the congestion of all of this growth. I think growth for Raleigh is good but I think SMART GROWTH is what we lack. I like the way North Hills has changed but in saying that I think more effort should have gone into planning for future light rail or curbed buses(if we ever get one) to all of these areas. I’ve heard people saying that they think that having a lot of growth in a particular area or the introduction of new skyscrapers and big businesses would make Raleigh a “soul-less” city with no hometown feel. No matter what a developer does the public has a choice to frequent these places or not and for those who don’t like the Truman Show feel are not part of the demographic that they cater to. Yes it can probably concidered gentrification but that happens all the time everywhere(not saying its right but it happens). Things that don’t adapt to change get left behind, and things that don’t first adapt to the coming change early enough set themselves up for failure. So its kind of a double edged sword…

Kim
09/04 02:05 PM

Whatever they do, they should include some friggin sidewalks so people can leave there homes without their cars.

Al
11/26 07:46 AM

why must they ruin another nice blob of green in this city.  Just leave it be…it looks like it has a huge creek running through it as well.  We don’t want that to flood out Kane’s plans do we?

chad Gilbert
02/25 07:14 PM

Haha!  So many people that have “The Right” answer to what Kane is building at North Hills - I have been there many times and it is ok, something kinda upscale in the area.
 
What gets me is so many arm chair critics who probably don’t go to City zoning meetings or are not involved in their neighborhood planning or meetings, and have the gaul to make a big deal about any and everything done in the neighborhood. Also if you do not participate in any neighborhood processes, why do you complain.  <G> Do something positive, get involved and be a part of the process.

Kane held neighborhood meetings with the surrounding residences before he started his development, where were you if you lived there?  He has the money and resources and he is trying to bring a little more class into the North Hills neighborhood At least he tries. Where is “your” money?  Most of the complainers probably can hardly afford a pot to pee in, let alone do any kind of major development like Kane - but then free speech is our right.  If you do not like what is going on in “your” neighborhood, get involved and at least be a part of the change instead of sitting in front of a computer and complaining.

I know how getting involved in your city and neighborhood can make a difference, I have been there and done it in my neighborhood.

You can make a difference if you get involved.

Chad

Barbara
02/25 07:49 PM

We did go to the “neighborhood” meetings. However, many of his meetings where he pulled support for his project were his neighbors further down off Lassiter Mill Road, NOT the people directly surrounding the development. It was fought by our neighbors bordering the Alexan. We miss the natural barrier that used to be there and fought to keep it. I am sure the people in the two apartment complexes who all got displaced had something to say about it too. Most of the “complainers” as you call us, are people who have lived there for years, upper-middle class, houses paid for. Yes, more than “a pot to pee in”. There was nothing wrong with the “class” of the North Hills neighborhood, and twenty years ago, Kane and his neighbors would not have associated with those of us outside the beltline. Yes, North Hills is outside the beltline. And since Kane “has the money and the resources” he should not have to ask for public loans to be put up for any more of his projects!

corey3rd
02/25 08:12 PM

as construction of North Hill 2 continues, my stomach sinks. Why did he have to smash that parking deck right against Six Forks Road? Is Kane’s revenge because the people of Raleigh refused to make him a charity case? The great wall of office space/apartments/whatever that’s under construction is a monstrosity.

I just fear how many people are going to get in wrecks with folks making three lane shifts to get into that parking deck while unsuspecting people are coming off the Beltline. I see enough wrecks and near misses already in front of North Hills now.

Can anyone explain those strange blinking red lights that are obscured by signs as you head into the parking deck at North Hills?

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