An Introduction to Raleigh’s Growth and WakeUP Wake County

ab
12/09 07:22 PM

Too few of the people arguing today against growth realize that their house use to be woods, too. People think that everyone else are the problem. Until we all realize that our actions are accountable then nothing will change.

Knave
12/09 07:59 PM

Yes, and in the meantime while we are exposing each other’s hypocrisy, we should sit and back and do nothing for fear of being called out.

Nate
12/10 12:34 PM

I love and Raleigh, and I think that there is a great opportunity to really guide it toward an amazing future.  This weekend we have an opportunity to show Raleigh to the nation when the Westboro Baptist “Church” shows up to protest Elizabeth Edwards’ funeral.  I am suprised and disappointed that NewRaleigh has not reported this story on the site, and tried to gather some support for the planned protests against Westboro.  This is all happening inside the beltline and right in downtown where all NewRaleigh followers concentrate their energy.  There should be scores of people out there showing these !@#$% that Raleigh is not the place for them.

hmmmm
12/10 12:40 PM

soooo…when your first child started kindergarten there were 4 classes with 18 students in each…so 72 students.  5 YEARS LATER there were 3 kindergarten classes with 26 students in each…so 78 students.  A growth of 6 whole students.  wow, close the flood gates.

it's true!
12/10 12:47 PM

In reference to ‘hmmmm’: 60,000 new students over the next 9 years (see link below)

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/09/22/695448/60000-more-students-by-2020.html

hmmmm
12/10 12:52 PM

I’m not disagreeing…just commenting on the video.  They could have used a different example.

it's true!
12/10 12:57 PM

I’m guessing that the point is that our school system’s budget is increasingly stretched out by growth and the need for constructing new schools, to the point where existing schools are forced to consolidate classes to save money (from 4 to 3 in the case of the example).  This process of consolidating classes together dilutes the academic experience of students and strains the system.

Kelly T.
12/10 01:04 PM

The stretched budget is not only for growth but for maintenance and renovations of older schools.  I agree that the growth is huge but i also agree with hmmmm, their point is not clear to all.

ralbear
12/10 03:37 PM

@hmmmm - the video’s point about was about budget not keeping up:  she mentions the numbers you quoted but in the context of they have “cut back” to three classes to 26 each (instead of four classes of 18).  Don’t know if this helps but I think you are missing the point-

susan
12/11 11:19 AM

Yes, my house in Cary was once woods, then a pasture, and in 1980 became a house. However, in 1980 there was very much land in Wake County that was forest or farm. Now, 30 years later, we have used up most of this natural area; there is very little left.

In 1980 we had plenty of water, and our roads were not clogged with traffic. Now we have a water problem, and too few roads. The use of water and the number of cars on the road have grown with the population. But it doesn’t rain more and cars take as much room as before.

Just because it was OK to grow 30 years ago does not mean that it is OK to grow so fast now. Had we grown at the same rate as the rest of the state, we would not have the limitations we now have. But we grew far faster than the rest of the state.

whoknowswhatinRaleigh?
12/12 10:04 AM

Can someone name a new development (built or planned) that Wake Up has supported and recognized as proper smart growth in Wake County?

Andrew
12/12 03:31 PM

@whoknowswhatinRaleigh? You brought up an interesting point that is often a source of confusion.  WakeUP does not advocate for (or criticize) any specific projects or developments.  WakeUP is a ‘big picture’ organization.  We work to improve public policy that helps shape the way Raleigh, and the rest of Wake County, is growing.  For instance, WakeUP provides regular feedback and attends stakeholder meetings for Raleigh’s New Development Ordinance.  In the case of the development ordinance, WakeUP advocated for a number of items including improved predictability for developers and community members, up-to-date LID stormwater guidelines and standards, and a clear definition of Transit Oriented Development with concrete expectations for new development.  Please let us know if you have any questions or ideas on what WakeUP could or should be doing to improve the quality of life in our community: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

susan
12/15 10:25 AM

Andrew,
Is WakeUP doing anything to reduce the sprawl that is eating up the farmland and forests in Wake and the Triangle?
Susan

Lisa Jeffries
12/16 02:55 AM

Born and raised, suckers!

andrew
12/16 03:19 AM

@susan.  WakeUP’s goal is not to blast living choices or conventional development patterns (subdivisions, strip malls, etc.)  However, WakeUP does advocate for possible alternatives to conventional development or good growth practices, i.e. policies that encourage urban infill, clustered development, transit oriented development, low impact development, and more!  The economic, social, and environmental benefits of good growth strategies are proven, particularly when it comes to the bottom line - the investment return on your tax dollars.  With citizen support, many of these good growth practices could help shape our region’s future and conserve the farmland and forests that you are concerned about.

Susan
12/17 12:09 PM

Andrew,
So WakeUP has no objections to putting more subdivision, strip malls, etc. on the edge of the developed area, destroying more farmland and forest to build it? Does WakeUP support sprawl?

The problem, Andrew, is that high density infill transit oriented, etc. development will not stop or even slow down the sprawl. As long as there are developers who want to build subdivisions or strip malls on the edge of town, people who want to buy them, and local governments that will allow it, our sprawl will continue, more fossil fuel will be used for commuting, and our natural land will be forever lost.

whoknowswhatinRaleigh?
12/18 12:11 PM

Susan, our MSA population is predicted to double in the next 20 or so years.  Where do you suggest the new growth required to accommodate an additional million people occur?

susan
12/18 10:25 PM

whoknowswhatinRaleigh?,
The key word in your comment is “predicted”. We don’t know how many people will move here. One of the things it depends upon is how much new housing growth we build and where we build it.

Certainly some of those new people will want more urban living, so we can build more housing in urban areas. But some will want suburban living.

We should decide what area we want developed, how we want them developed (mix of single family, town home, apartments/condos, etc). And much of the area should be off limits to development. We can limit sprawl, but we may also be limiting growth.

I don’t think that it is true that “if you build it they will come”. But it is certainly true that “if you DON’T build it they WON’T come”.

whoknowswhatinRaleigh?
12/19 10:28 AM

Honestly Susan, I believe you have closely outlined how land use planning and new development growth works in China.

susan
12/20 10:48 AM

I don’t know about China, but placing area off limits to development has been used in much of the US, including NC. Some places use “urban growth boundaries”; others use “rural buffers”; and others call them “rural districts”. Still other communities refuse to changing the zoning or land use planning of certain land to a category that would allow sprawl.

WherexsTheGrowth
12/21 10:56 PM

We live in a great region. Today, growth is slow. The market has slowed for everything.  New development has all but dried up.  The growth rate for our region is now below the rate of population growth. While we still have challenges to address, we also have to balance those challenges with attracting new jobs and future businesses.  I worry that WakeUp Wake County, funded by folks who want to restrict or slow growth, will continue to fool people into thinking that this organization wants to promote growth.  Wake up folks(sorry, I could not resist)!

Finally, I am just tired of folks thinking that our kids are entitled to small classrooms.  My kids have 25 kids in their class, they make good grades, are learning well, and doing fine.  Bigger classrooms are not the end of the world—-it’s just one more factoid that slow growth no growth advocates use to push their self-centered agenda.

Andrew
12/22 02:54 AM

@WherexsTheGrowth, thank you for your feedback.  You raise a common misconception.  WakeUP is not for or against growth.  Instead, WakeUP recognizes that growth is a reality.

Growth presents both opportunities and challenges for our region - opportunities for new business and jobs, and challenges for maintaining a high quality of life that will continue to attract new companies and an educated workforce well into the future.

Will new businesses choose the Triangle if our school system performs poorly and costs more?  If there is not enough clean drinking water available?  If traffic congestion and poor air quality require federally mandated compliance credits?

What type of community would you choose to invest in?

Susan
12/22 11:39 AM

WherexsTheGrowth,
The growth over the last couple of years has been slow due to the economy. It has been that way everywhere. However, the growth rate of Wake County has, over the last decade, been higher than almost anywhere else.

We have problems with our supply (quantity and quality) of water, with traffic congestion, etc. We are also sprawling, with loss of natural area (fields and forests).

We need people who will address these problems.

Andrew,
I have asked before, and I will ask again. What is (or will) WakeUP Wake do to reduce the rate of sprawl?

How can we continue to grow so fast given our limitations of water, traffic congestion, etc.

Susan

Karen Rindge, WakeUP
12/22 03:24 PM

Susan,
People are moving here because of this region’s assets—nice weather, jobs, good public schools, green space.  One way to keep people from coming would be to substantially increase property and other taxes, something I doubt any of us would want.  The entire globe is growing demographically, and we are experiencing part of that.  WakeUP Wake County maintains that what we should be doing a much better job of is PLANNING for the growth, and helping to guide the growth (to help curb sprawl). That’s why WakeUP advocates for a regional transit system with light rail…because denser development will occur along the rail corridor, thus preventing lower density growth elsewhere. As Andrew pointed out, WakeUP is also engaging citizens in providing input to elected officials on the New Development Code and water conservation practices so that we make better decisions for high quality growth.

Karen Rindge, Executive Director, WakeUP Wake County

Susan
12/29 11:21 AM

Karen,
Wake is growing much faster than the other counties in NC and in the Triangle, even though they also have nice weather, jobs, etc. We can plan for growth, but we cannot make it rain more. We have traffic congestion now. This includes areas not affected by the planned transit. How much worse will it get?

Denser development along the light rail corridor will not reduce sprawl because:
1 - the small size of the corridor will not provide housing for the number of people expected, and
2 - because a large number of people will not give up an individual house with yard for a multi-floor condo or apartment.

I like transit and look forward to the light rail. However, I do not believe that high density housing near a rail stop will compete with the single family homes in subdivisions. High density on one area will not prevent low density sprawl in another area.

Is WakeUP willing to work to reduce the conversion of open space (fields and forests) into subdivisions?
Susan

whoknowswhatinRaleigh?
01/03 07:49 PM

Karen and Andrew.  With the understanding your group advocates for ‘big-picture’ ‘properly’ planned growth versus individual projects, or specific developments, can WUWC identify a few cities that have successfully implemented similar denser-development anti-sprawl policy?  It is important for me to better understand what ‘high quality growth’ actually looks like in the eyes of WUWC prior to supporting your group’s public policy advocacy.  Specific examples of successful high-growth dense-development cities that curbed sprawl would be appreciated.

frank
01/04 12:17 PM

Urban Spraw is natural. The only way to stop it is to stop building -but then there would be no malls, no mcmansions, no neighborhoods, ect ect.

Where you lived use to be woods until you purchased it!

150
01/04 12:41 PM

Frank’s right.  Speaking of the vanishing woods….we haven’t heard from Sasquatch in a long time.  Wonder if he became a sprawl victim.

susan
01/07 12:55 PM

Frank,
You say “Where you lived use to be woods until you purchased it!”. Read my comment above, from 12/11.
Yes, my house in Cary was once woods, then a pasture, and in 1980 became a house. However, in 1980 there was very much land in Wake County that was forest or farm. Now, 30 years later, we have used up most of this natural area; there is very little left.
There was a time when we had plenty of open land, water, road capacity, etc. and could grow. That was then. Now, we have very little undeveloped land, our roads are congested, and we don’t have sufficient water to survive a drought. We must think about limiting our rate of growth.

susan
01/07 10:11 PM

Salt Lake City, Seattle, and Portland OR are all good examples. I have visited Portland and Seattle many times on business, and I am impressed with what they have done to make their cities compact and vibrant.

It should be noted that all three of these cities have used growth management practices, including urban growth boundaries and other policies, along with transit, to limit sprawl.