Rumors Start at Available Capital City Grocery

• Ernie
  01/06 02:41 AM
  

  Holy Crap I miss the Piggly Wiggly. Please Piggly Wiggly, Please Piggly Wiggly!! Piggly Wiggly!

• Clyde Smith
  01/06 03:26 AM
  

  I’d love to see a Piggly Wiggly at Seaboard Station though I doubt that fits the “class consciousness” of the developers.

  But that would give Wilson one less thing to brag about.  Now they’ll have to settle for having a superior water supply and the fastest consumer internet access in the U.S.

• Dave
  01/06 07:37 AM
  

  The Wiggly is just a rumor. I’m on the Mordecai email list and the rumor was brought up and checked out (both with Sue Stock and the Pig’s corporate offices).
  Would love to see one there, though!

• Emily
  01/06 08:40 AM
  

  *cough* dean and deluca *cough* *cough*

• RaleighRob
  01/06 09:01 AM
  

  Since we still desperately need a downtown grocery store, and the place is obviously already fitted to be such a spot, I keep hoping one will go in there.  And I think most of us would agree an established chain would have a better chance of survival—-and a better chance of actually providing everything on your grocery list—than what we had with the last two incarnations of Capital City. 

  I’m guessing the Piggly Wiggly rumour came about because we already know they can run a small grocery store.  They kept their little one going in Five Points well into the 90s.  And in many small towns down east they run small neighborhood grocery stores all about.  Sure it’s not as “upscale” or whatever as a Harris Teeter or Lowes or whatever.  But if they indeed wanted to try, I’d be all for that.

• 150
  01/06 09:28 AM
  

  I’m not sure I agree, RaleighRob.  As a downtown resident, I can’t get on board with the statement that we “desperately need” a grocery store.  Cameron Village’s Harris Teeter is less than a mile from downtown (walking/biking distance, if one chooses).  It’s got such a large selection that everything is pretty much covered.  I do agree with you that CC Grocery suffered because of a poor inventory in terms of selection (which is why I gave up shopping there after a few tries).  I think that if an established grocery store goes in there, they are still going to have to battle this issue, simply due to the size of the building.  Now, if they can offer enough, then it’ll be a nice option for downtown residents and the nearby neighborhoods.  They can be successful, but it’s still going to be a struggle when the big HT is so close.

• Tony
  01/06 10:08 AM
  

  Holy Cow would I love a Dean & Deluca.

• CF
  01/06 10:47 AM
  

  I live in the warehouse district.  So, getting a grocery store in this location is pretty far down my list of downtown priorities.  The HT in Cameron Village is about the same distance away for me and a lot of other downtown residents.  I always saw Capital Grocery as more of an Oakwood/Mordecai store than downtown proper.

• disguisedAsStr8
  01/06 10:48 AM
  

  Come on….Dean and Deluca?  In a building that can’t be seen from Peace St, has no advertising and very little foot traffic.  I just don’t think Raleigh would support it.  On top of that aren’t Joel and Giorgio gay.  With the anti-gay vibe that Raleigh exudes, I find it hard to believe that the people would support it.

  I know Piggly Wiggly doesn’t fit Seaboard’s upscale image (regardless of how superficial it is), but I, for one, would love to see Piggly Wiggly open there.  I hate driving over to Cameron, then circling like a vulture waiting for a parking space to open up.

• Crash
  01/06 11:02 AM
  

  The Piggly Wig story is indeed a rumor and unfortunately other grocery store chains are not interested in the space, nor creating an “express” store anywhere downtown at the moment. The core population in the area is not high enough to meet their requirements yet, but eventually will be once the recession recedes and the residential migration downtown starts again in full force.

• Betsy
  01/06 11:18 AM
  

  Weaver Street Market would be perfect for the space.  They have a Hillsborough store; surely there is not a larger market there than would be found in Raleigh. 
  -
  I was in there Sunday and they have $2 pints of cherry tomatoes, North Carolina dry hard cider, three kinds of local organic milk, red navel oranges at 1.99 per pound, local pasture-ranged chicken at 2.99 per pound—and, in addition to the huge selection of fresh local ingredients, all the frozen and convenience foods you could imagine.  I mean, everything was right there, and reasonably priced (think Harris-Teeter range).  How wonderful if Raleigh could have a Weaver Street co-op.  You have to have people ready to be part of that, though.
  -
  One other observation about the former Cap City Because the space is not highly visible or accessible, it does need to be a destination retailer, not a convenience retail or standard store like a HT or Piggly.

• Clyde
  01/06 11:19 AM
  

  CF:
  I agree, calling Seaboard Station “downtown” feels odd to me but clearly lots of things are getting renamed and redefined at this time.  And “downtown” is where the action is at the moment.

  RE: Dean & DeLuca
  It’s great to have wishes and dreams but they would never put a store there.  They need to make lots more money than they could make at that location.

  RE:
  “With the anti-gay vibe that Raleigh exudes, I find it hard to believe that the people would support it.”

  This isn’t the most gay friendly spot but I’m not really up on how homophobic Raleigh’s upcale citizens, the kind that would shop at Dean & DeLuca, happen to be.

  I have to admit, I would be very surprised if that was a problem for such a business.

  I’ve always thought retail involving upscale aesthetics was one place where the cliches tend to work in favor of gay men if not for lesbian women, bisexuals, transgenders and all the other sexual identities that help create a worthwhile city.

• richardfoc
  01/06 12:30 PM
  

  “With the anti-gay vibe that Raleigh exudes“

  Really? Anti-gay vibe? Really? I mean there are always idiots out there but to say Raleigh exudes an anti-gay vibe…I’m just not feeling it. And no, I’m not gay but I do have gay friends and to my knowledge they have never commented on Raleigh being anti-gay nor have they mentioned feeling uncomfortable. I guess I’m just hanging out with the right people and going to the cool places.

• Clyde Smith
  01/06 01:11 PM
  

  richardfoc:
  “I guess I’m just hanging out with the right people and going to the cool places.”

  
  That’s some arrogant nonsense.

  
  Try asking your groovy gay friends what they experience and see what they haven’t been telling their oh so hip straight friends.

• Bill
  01/06 01:17 PM
  

  I don’t smoke but I can’t believe Capital Grocery didn’t sell cigarettes.  It should have been more like Pink Dot in LA, rather than trying to compete with Whole Foods.  http://www.pinkdot.com/  You can charge whatever you like to deliver condoms and wine at 1:00 AM. And the gays seem to like that store too.  Dean and Deluca will be lucky to survive the recession/depression.  People can’t wait for a Whole Foods and then they start complaining about the prices as soon as they get it.

• richardfoc
  01/06 01:57 PM
  

  Lighten up Clyde. Would a have helped next to my comment? It was tongue in cheek. But I will say you don’t know me so don’t presume I haven’t talked with my groovy gay friends about their experiences both here and in other cities.

  Peace.

• Really??
  01/06 02:36 PM
  

  How does a topic drift from empty grocery store to homophobia?  I’ll call Kevin Bacon to find out.  Everyone’s an “informed” expert with venom at their fingertips in the blogosphere.

• richardfoc
  01/06 02:47 PM
  

  Ha! Sorry about the highjack. Anyway, I’m afraid another grocery store wouldn’t stand a chance…too much bad karma in that building and I don’t think the 3rd time will be the charm. In fact with the current economic conditions I’d be surprised to see anybody step up and try to develop that property anytime soon. That being said however if somebody does I wish them all the luck in the world and I will do what I can to support them.

• JZ
  01/06 03:05 PM
  

  as long as the new Pig has a “Salon de Refuse”....bring on the pigs feet, ears and expired-but-still-edible-if-you-cook-the-hell-out-of-it slabs o’ meat…..

• Arthur!
  01/06 03:18 PM
  

  As far as the “downtown comments”- I have a friend that lives in Brier Creek and he thinks he is going downtown when he goes to Crabtree!!

  But I digress—for anything to survive it needs to cater to everyone in the area—the Peace girls, The Mill residents and the Oakwood crowd. Its hard from some retailers to get it right!!

• Clyde Smith
  01/06 03:25 PM
  

  “How does a topic drift from empty grocery store to homophobia?  I’ll call Kevin Bacon to find out.  Everyone’s an “informed” expert with venom at their fingertips in the blogosphere.”

  
  The Reality Check:
  Blog comments are conversations.  This is how conversations work among intelligent humans.

  
  The Venom:
  I bet you’re a boring conversationalist with all your rules and regulation and labels that limit what can be said and what connections can be made.  I don’t sketch out all the details and connections as if you’re a child but maybe that’s what I need to do from now on.

  
  Meeting your expectations so far?

  
  As always, anonymous is a punk.

• Clyde Smith
  01/06 03:46 PM
  

  Oddly enough, “Really?”, your expert comment reminds me that, technically speaking, this would be considered an area of my expertise based on my independent study and activism related to such topics beginning in the 80s leading to graduate study from a similar perspective culminating in a doctorate in Cultural Studies from OSU (2000).

  
  Some of that is revealed here:
  http://www.culturalresearch.org/

• TSnow27604
  01/06 05:11 PM
  

  I live on Person and will say that there are many people in the area that will support a grocery store.  Bi-Lo, Winn Dixie, Big Star, whatever.  I need milk.  I need bread.  I need grits.  If they don’t have fresh platains, I’ll suffer through.  A locally owned place would be nice but economically speaking, it would be much easier for a chain to be successful as they can rely on profits from other locations if sales start slow here.  I now shop at Harris Teeter but don’t see me on a bike with 6 bags of groceries.

• JZ
  01/06 06:26 PM
  

  Any new grocery outfit needs to distinguish itself with something that NOBODY else can offer. The HT is too close to try to compete.  And Food Lion on Raleigh Blvd. offers an alternative for cheaper choices.  Kroger is NOT that far away either and Trader Joe’s is going to be right up from there.  Bottomline, there isn’t enough ‘captive’ population that would favor making a small grocery store here their choice over one with more product availability.  Conti understood how to build a niche, but perhaps his was a bit too narrow to really sustain itself. 

  What if one took a lesson from the fine cuts of meat that Capital City did well and expanded the concept to other departments.  For example, could Raleigh sustain a 9th Street-type Bakery (like the old Big Sky) combined a specialty butcher, combined with a maybe great seafood counter, combined with a cafe/wine bar, etc., etc….....things that don’t exist in any of these other larger grocery stores and have a demand in and of themselves….

• Jedidiah
  01/06 09:01 PM
  

  Editor’s note -

  Please stick to the subject of the former Capital City Grocery building and not insulting each other or comments will be deleted, as a few have been.

• Clyde Smith
  01/06 09:38 PM
  

  Thanks for intervening.  I appreciate editors clarifying the boundaries.

• Anne Sullivan
  01/06 10:46 PM
  

  With a Phd under your belt…shouldn’t you be an expert on that?

• RaleighRob
  01/07 08:42 AM
  

  Back on topic, I think Betsy’s on to something with the Weaver Street Market suggestion.  For years folks have lamented Raleigh’s lack of a co-op grocery.  The Weaver Street people seem to be the only ones in the Triangle who do it well…they’ve branched into three stores (Carrboro, Hillsborough, and Chapel Hill’s Southern Village).  Obviously, they’re successful at it.
  Would they be interested in venturing to the eastern side of the Triangle?  I dunno…but this would be the ideal locale I think:  perfect size, building already fitted to be a grocery store, upscale population nearby, a city that lacks a co-cop, etc etc etc.

• Bill
  01/07 09:03 AM
  

  A Co-Op isn’t going to work at $17+ per square foot.  Taz is on to something downtown: You need to get the space before a developer claims it, upfits and jacks the rent too high.  That is only possible with smaller spaces downtown, as the larger spaces are all claimed by developers.  And Taz sells beer, cigarettes, aspirin, dog food - convenience items that people need between trips to Whole Foods, Fresh Market, or HT.  This store could have survived by being an upscale convenience store rather than trying to be a mini Whole Foods and trying to fulfill every customer suggestion.  Helios used to have a customer suggestion book and it was ludicrous, with suggestions like:  Put in a fireplace, a fountain, flat screens.  If it’s true that the customer is always right, the world would look like Las Vegas.

• Betsy
  01/07 09:37 AM
  

  I wonder what the rent is in Weaver Street’s existing spaces at Carr Mill Mall in Carrboro, and at the brand-new building in Hillsboro.  I don’t imagine it’s cheap.

• Betsy
  01/07 09:43 AM
  

  And I feel like a broken record for saying this,* but part of our problem downtown is that we ripped down or are in the process of ripping down all the old (cheap) buildings that would have had cheap to moderate rents that startups and eclectic businesses could afford.
  -
  It’s important to have a *mix* of old and new buildings, a mix of expensive, moderate, and cheap spaces, for a vibrant business mix—and particularly for innovation.
    -
  Experimentation thrives at the margins and that includes marginal neighborhoods. 
  -
  * not that anyone knows what a broken record is anymore

• WiseOne
  01/07 10:27 AM
  

  Why a grocery store? I would think any smart (profitable) business person would decide that history has proven it doesn’t work. I would speculate that a Cup-A-Joe’s could survive and make some money in this location.

• 150
  01/07 10:41 AM
  

  How about a seafood market or a butcher’s shop?

  That’s food on a smaller scale, serve a niche that differentiates it from Harris Teeter, and provide quality local products that wouldn’t necessarily need a ton of advertising to survive.  The size of that location would work, and it would fit in with the other offerings of Seaboard Station. 

  Anyone try to find live lobsters in central NC?  Nobody has them.  The good ol’ Atlantic Ocean is close enough that downtown Raleigh could be provided with nice fresh seafood.  I would definitely be a customer.

• Bill
  01/07 10:49 AM
  

  Betsy, I agree with you 100%.  I think the history of Raleigh’s recent revival was initially about people avoiding the redeveloped properties.  The City and York were trying to promote City Market, which was redeveloped, expensive and orphaned in a boring downtown that was overpriced.  Instead, Five Points took off due to cheap rents - Lilly’s, Sting-Ray, Third Place, Hayes Barton Cafe and then NOFO.  The Rockford opened on Glenwood South, where there was absolutely nothing but Sunflowers (Since priced out of that neighborhood) then 518 and Glenwood South became ground zero for developers.  Eventually the rents in Glenwood South were higher than those downtown.  So much of Raleigh has been demolished for parking lots McClaurin to rent to downtown workers.  There aren’t many margins left in Raleigh, except for Hillsborough Street.  It’s sad to visit cities like Pittsburgh that have a tech boom and a huge stock of buildings, housing and neighborhoods ripe with potential.

• DBD
  01/07 11:12 AM
  

  Lord, I would give my right arm for a Weaver Street - type co-op downtown (and as a resident of Boylan Heights I definitely count Seaboard as “downtown”).  But people seem to be forgetting that we’re talking about a co-op, i.e. a cooperative grass-roots effort that would require a sustained long-term effort by the residents of Raleigh.  Weaver Street isn’t a franchise that just decides to expand to new locations - each new location involved a local effort and a LOT of work by those who wanted to start the co-op.  Maybe there is enough interest and enthusiasm to build a co-op in the downtown Raleigh community - I haven’t lived here long enough to judge that - but I haven’t heard anyone volunteering to dedicate their hours to such an effort.

• kris
  01/07 01:18 PM
  

  A few years ago there was a movement to start a co-op in downtown.  Folks met semi-regularly and some even wrote checks.  But when it came down to it, we couldn’t find enough people to serve on a board of directors in order to move forward for financing.  At the same time, Chatham Market Place (co-op in Pittsboro) was just getting started and has now been successful for a couple of years.
  Weaver Street does seem to be on a growth path and would be a great addition to Raleigh.

  Another business model that could work is George’s Garage in Durham.  It’s in the old WFM location and has a bakery, extensive prepared foods, pizza and sushi in a casual atmosphere for dining in or carry-out.

• Josh
  01/07 04:43 PM
  

  I think a Trader Joes would be great at this location. Most TJ’s are about the size of CCG and have a comparable amount of parking.

• richardfoc
  01/07 04:48 PM
  

  It would have been awesome to have a Trader Joe’s there but it is going in at the Beltline and Wake Forest Rd.

• MMI
  01/08 10:17 AM
  

  150,
  I would LOOOOOOVE an honest-to-gawd Butcher around here, and a fishmonger, too.  Still, that space is far too big to effectively serve either.  I’m thinking a space closer to the size of Seaboard Wines would work for that—is there any space available down by Peace China?  I know that the Hardware store has reduced the size of their rental space, but the area they are vacating is in the back of the store.

  
  I’m curious—how many of my fellow NewRaleigh readers would go out of their way to find a Butcher Shop or Fishmonger?  Personally, I get sick of the random availability of certain cuts (flank steak for a kickin’ Braciole comes to mind), plus the prepackaged nature of megamart meat departments that result in days of waiting for custom orders.  Gimme someone who KNOWS their meat (insert guffaws here) and I’ll beat a path to their door (insert more guffaws).

• JZ
  01/08 10:58 AM
  

  Can you imagine walking in and smelling the sawdust all over the floor of a real Butcher Shop?  Total heaven.

  Like I mentioned before, I think you could do a collective of these things, either as a “Farmers Market” with various stalls or all-under-one moniker set up as departments.
  __
  If Conti’s could survive filling a space that size specializing in just Italian foods (don’t know why he closed, again, this time, but if its like the last time, it wasn’t due to lack of community support), I think it could be done here.  But it has to be unique and difficult to acquire in other locations.
  __
  Even so, perhaps the developer/landlord needs to consider dividing the space into two smaller specialty food stores.  The eastern bay could easily be partitioned off leaving the meat, deli and produce counters in the space next to Betski’s.

• becky
  01/08 11:22 AM
  

  Actually, Bill’s suggestion about the Pink Dot is not a bad idea.

  It gets around the whole “nobody knows where it is” conundrum b/c you don’t go to it, it goes to you.  Snag some hybrid delivery vehicles or partner with Raleigh Rickshaw and it *could* be quirky enough to fill a useful niche.

  I like it.

• MMI
  01/08 01:30 PM
  

  “Is it the Pink Dot man??  Is he cute?  Is he brown?”

  
  Sorry, still cracks me up.

• g¢
  01/10 06:46 PM
  

  I’d heard a rumour that a Trader Joe’s was going in. Anyone else heard the same? That to me would be much better than ANOTHER Harris Teeter or a Dean&Deluca;. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE D&D but as if CapCity wasn’t spendy enough! Trader Joe’s would have the brand behind it to keep prices reasonable and could suffer a bit of a “slow growth” until people were aware it was there.

  I REALLY wish someone would open a news/bookstore in SOME available space downtown…

• cat
  01/10 07:58 PM
  

  No, Trader Joe’s isn’t going there but it is going in the shopping center right inside the beltline on Wake Forest Road.  It is scheduled to open sometime this year.

• MMI
  01/11 12:43 PM
  

  As was mentioned earlier in this thread, plus umpteen times in the parent thread.

• brookline
  01/11 12:43 PM
  

  The grocery store ideas are nice, but i’d sure love to see Kings take that spot . . .

• Scott
  01/12 02:49 PM
  

  KINGS KINGS KINGS!!!

• g¢
  01/13 01:30 AM
  

  Sorry MMI, just read your earlier post(s).

  Yes, I would appreciate a close(r) butcher/fishmonger. But with Earp’s SO close I’d hate to deny them my business. And Cliff’s is great if you don’t mind driving a half hour each way. Too, I find that many of the local tiendas have GREAT carnicerias; I mean, I would not be making steak tartare with their cuts but for everything else…

• art
  01/13 10:53 AM
  

  Anti-gay vibe?  Really?  This gay guy has not experienced it.

• Lisa Jeffries
  01/13 12:04 PM
  

  For those who want some more opportunities for locally-grown produce, etc. that could have the opportunity to become part of a downtown co-op, this is an interesting read:

  Perpetuating Small Farms - Enviroprenuer Snapshots:
  http://www.perc.org/articles/article1105.php

• MMI
  01/13 01:16 PM
  

  Earp’s?  What and where is that?  As for the local Hispanic groceries, you’re dead on.  When I lived in RTP, I would hit a little joint on 54, just up from the 55 intersection.  Great chorizo there.

• JLW
  01/13 03:12 PM
  

  There is lack of good quality organic and local produce at all local groceries…even Whole Foods.  The shrivelled up “organic”  produce at Harris Teeter and Lowes is not appealing to anyone.  A high end specialty grocery specializing organic food with built in coffee shop and small specialty cafe would fit the area and be supported by the surrounding condos and homes.  A good product will bring the people without store visability from the street.

• g¢
  01/14 10:04 AM
  

  MMI:
  Kid, if you don’t know about Earp’s you’ve been missing out! Just past Ray Price on South Saunders. Great place to buy bushels of oysters (call early to reserve yours) and CHEAP fresh fish. Everything from fryable mullet to fresh octopus (sometimes). Way cheaper/fresher than any of the chain super markets and the people couldn’t be nicer.

  http://maps.google.com/maps?client=safari&rls=en-us&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=earp’s+seafood+raleigh&fb=1&split=1&view=text&latlng=8571674418567982632

• 150
  01/14 10:28 AM
  

  gc:  Does Earp’s have live lobsters?

• MMI
  01/14 03:17 PM
  

  Thanks, g.  I think I have seen the place—on the right on the way out of town, correct?  It’s just far enough away for me not to think of right away.  I had pretty much given up on being able to find fresh seafood in Raleigh, despite us living 2 hours from the coast.  Then again, I acknowledge being spoiled for choice having moved here from the SC coast.

  
  Thanks again for the tip!!