Today’s Hillsborough/Pullen Roundabout Accident

Manuel Monserrate
10/25 02:40 PM

I’m thinking some people shouldn’t be out there driving, period.

ashley
10/25 02:41 PM

If people would treat it like a four way stop sign like they’re supposed to it wouldn’t be a problem.  Stop, look right, look left, person to your right and in intersection have right of ways.  Easy.  The problem is people coming off Hillsborough aren’t yielding.  They barrel on through without a pause or a thought.  You don’t have the right of way if you got there second.

PTK
10/25 02:44 PM

Sometimes dual lane.

joe
10/25 02:47 PM

Its a circle.  why is so difficult to understand?

watch for traffic to your left, regardless of the ‘lane’.  Yield, just like you would do a any other stoplight.

Given the paper interviewed a 19 and 22 year old, what are the odds in addition to not paying attention, they were also texting or calling someone?

Behki
10/25 02:47 PM

The 84 accidents have occurred since July of last year, 2010.

People are idiots. More often than not I have been stuck behind people who stop at the traffic circle for some reason (no one is in it) and then when a car enters, they’re like “Oh, I guess I can enter too? Maybe???”

It’s not scary if you pay attention, which I guess is a problem for most drivers.

EG
10/25 03:06 PM

Its not a 4-way stop sign and shouldn’t be treated as one.  Its designed to let traffic flow.  Maybe if they get rid of the 2nd ring and make it a 1-ring circus, it would reduce the complexity.

It would be interesting to see how many of those involved in the 84 crashes were yakking on their cell phone at the time.

Andy S.
10/25 03:09 PM

Not terribly surprising.  I’ve lost count of the number of people I’ve watched as they attempted to turn left into a single-lane roundabout.

I definitely think that the roundabouts are an improvement over the previous intersections, but people definitely aren’t paying attention as they navigate them.  And though I’m more used to it now, I definitely found the two-lane roundabout confusing initially, since it’s too easy to reach the roundabout and discover that you’re in the wrong lane to get to where you’re trying to go.  Early warning signs (“Hillsborough St. Right Lane, Pullen Rd. Left Lane” for example) placed sufficiently in advance of the roundabout would go a long way toward addressing some of the confusion.

Of course, now I’m just waiting for someone to point out that these signs exist, and that I’ve just never noticed them.

EK
10/25 03:09 PM

I would like someone to explain how it improved things.  I think it made going down Hillsborough a thing to avoid and I think the shopkeepers on the street would agree!  We should have done something to improve traffic flow and parking (like parking lots people!) not slow things down.

chrisinraleigh
10/25 03:11 PM

Ashley

chrisinraleigh
10/25 03:13 PM

(sorry) @ Ashley - I don’t think it is like a four-way stop:  the people on your right (waiting to enter) don’t have the right of way.  It’s a one way circle, only the drivers already in have the right of way….

Rob E.
10/25 03:16 PM

I don’t mind a double lane roundabout, but I find this implementation confusing. I think of the inner lane as being the lane that cannot exit the roundabout until it moves to the outer lane, or until the outer lane ceases to be. As a result, the part where the inner lane can exit on to Pullen always throws me.

Brian
10/25 03:18 PM

My biggest problem is people ignoring the fact that it’s two lanes, going from one to the other and back in one move.

Bill
10/25 03:44 PM

I drive on Hillsborough St more frequently now than I did before the roundabouts.  They improve the traffic by keeping it flowing at a slower speed.  They have successfully “calmed” traffic.  NC State students should be taught how to cross the street and how to use the roundabouts as part of their orientation.  They still walk into traffic as if they are eager to lose a game of human Frogger.  The combo of off-brand Ugg boots with the Soffe shorts is a good look to die in.

Chris
10/25 03:45 PM

@EK I was initially very skeptical of the roundabouts when they were first discussed, however, I’m a convert now. They have greatly reduced the time that it takes me to get through that intersection. Back when it was a stop light, it took much longer to drive between Western Blvd and Cameron Villiage. That to me makes the roundabouts a good idea. Traffic may be driving slower, but it’s more efficient, I believe. I do wish that they had addressed the parking issue as well. Maybe one day.

cm
10/25 03:45 PM

So where is the information on how many accidents there were at the intersection before the roundabout? The reporting is lacking this key bit of info.

For example, what if it turns out there were 237 accidents at that same intersection when it was a regular intersection? We would be patting ourselves on the back at how smart it was to put in a roundabout, but that info is missing so we have nothing to compare it to.

Synaesthete
10/25 05:19 PM

“but cite that accidents are happening at lower speed and with less injuries than the previous intersection design.”  That’s all the justification that’s needed.  Most people would accept a fender-bender or light side-swipe every day of the year over a death or serious injury.  The roundabouts are a success because from a physical point-of-view, velocity is always tangential to the path of traffic rather than perpendicular or parallel as in traditional intersections.  It’s just going to take some getting used to, but at least everyone who messes up will be alive to give it another try (and more than likely, so will their dinged up automobile).  Even a motorcyclist would be flung outside of the traffic circle and be very likely to survive.

Mike
10/25 06:01 PM

What about a blinking yellow light for traffic from eastbound Hillsborough?  By the time you’ve read the yield sign you’re entering the circle.

Synaesthete
10/25 06:17 PM

^One of the coolest ideas I’ve heard about traffic circles involved placing a water fountain in the middle whose height and intensity adjusts based on volume of incoming traffic.  One of the keys to the success of traffic circles is actually giving people the perception that there is a bit more danger ahead, because it stimulates people to pay closer attention.  Relying on traffic lights often gives people the false impression that things are “OK” ahead and they can barrel right through, only to get t-boned.  However, I think in the meantime, a more traditional cautionary indicator such as a blinking yellow light is a great idea.

stretch
10/25 08:29 PM

it should absolutely be 1 lane! it is 1 lane leading to it from every direction.  why does it split?

Ashley
10/25 09:03 PM

@chrisinraleigh. The thing is some of the same principles of a four way stop do apply to a circle. If I’m coming off pulled and you’re on hillsborough and were the only ones at the circle I have the right of way because I’m furthest to the right. If I get there first I have the right of way again. If you get there first you go first. Whomever is already in the circle when we both pull up has the right of way over both of us. The basic principle is the same.  @EG traffic would flow smoothly if it were treated this way. But people have to learn that yeild signs mean stop look then go just like stop signs. It does not mean approach cruise through slowly without stopping and hope for the best. That’s why people are getting hit.

Synaesthete
10/25 09:16 PM

@Ashley, actually I believe you’re supposed to always yield to the left whether or not the person to your left was already there or not.  In practice, if someone is approaching at the left and you were at the circle first, most of the time you’ll have time to jump on before they do.  If you were there first and a line of traffic is coming from the left, you should not go until ‘all’ of the traffic on the left has cleared out.  Furthermore, a “yield” does mean that you can continue cruising through and hop on without stopping.  Getting on a traffic circle more closely resembles merging on an on-ramp than stopping at an intersection.  The idea is that you should ‘not’ have to look to your right before going, which is another reason it’s simpler than a multi-way intersection.

Synaesthete
10/25 09:20 PM

...not to say you shouldn’t glance to your right as well, because that’s where you’re headed, but seeing a car stopped to your right doesn’t mean you can’t go ahead—you just go!

smitty
10/25 09:23 PM

NC State engineering students are plucky, they will adapt.  Think A-Team meets Mad Max.  Lots of steel plating and spikes welded onto the sides of cars.

Mark
10/25 09:43 PM

I agree with the folks who the problem is with the second ring primarily. One lane in from each direction will help a lot. The cases of people not slowing down under any circumstance are best solved by revoking their human being license.

Ashley
10/25 10:07 PM

@Synaesthete I think if you look it up the rules on right of ways is whoever got there first has the right of way and after that it’s the person furthest to the right first. Obviously traffic in the circle has right of way. I’m speaking just to instances of entering. I’ve almost been hit too many times by people when I’m coming off pullen because the car in front on hillsborough st went and everyone behind them followed suit without stopping and yielding to the next person at the intersection. If it were treated more like a four way stop everyone could get safely in and out without fear of being hit.

Synaesthete
10/25 10:48 PM

@Ashley, you’re right about people already in the traffic circle having right-of-way.  However, you should never have to yield to someone waiting on the right under any circumstances (unless they’re already in the traffic circle).  If you’re pulling out in front of a line of cars that are all flowing in from the left, you’re incorrectly treating a traffic circle like a 4-way stop, which it is not.  It’s best to wait until the left side is clear enough for you to make a break for it.
With regard to the two-lane traffic circle, that only works well for larger circles.  The Pullen/Hillsborough circle definitely should be reduced to a single-lane or expanded and made a completely two-lane circle.  Traffic circles are great, but that one I think could have been better executed.

JP
10/26 12:27 AM

It’s true, you do need to pay attention, more so if you haven’t been through this one before. But shouldn’t you be doing that when driving anyhow? There is nothing about this design that hasn’t worked in many other places.  Common sense and observation is evident that you need to
- Slow down
- Look Left
- Go if nothing is coming

Fundamentally the same as merging onto a highway, at a much slower speed.

PRO TIP: If you are scared just use the outside lane every time.

Ashley
10/26 07:29 AM

@Synaesthete I’m not saying don’t look left.  I’ve never said don’t look left.  By all means absolutely wait if someone is already moving on your left side.  But if you and another person pull up at the same time the person to the right is going to have the right of way.  Its basic traffic law.  If everyone knew who gets to go first once the way is clear things would flow more smoothly.

RaleighRob
10/26 09:10 AM

I agree with others that for the most part, traffic flows much better than when there were stoplights at Oberlin and Pullen.  I remember quite well how bad the congestion was when those lights were there—-and how unfriendly for pedestrians it was, too.

Maybe clearer signage would help.  Perhaps rumble strips before you enter the circle to jab your attention, to take notice of what you’re doing. And even the idea of blinking yellow lights is reasonable. 

But I am definitely against getting rid of the circle or even drastic changes to it.  It’s built decently well and it makes traffic flow.  And the few accidents we’ve had are fender benders and no head-on collisions that I know of.  A few idiots shouldn’t ruin everything for the rest of us!

richardfoc
10/26 09:19 AM

A traffic circle is not a four way stop and should not be treated as such. Cars entering the circle should only be concerned with other cars already in the circle. That’s the beauty of the circle. If we arrive at the same time why am I going to wait for you to go if you are on the right and there is no traffic in the circle? We are going to both flow into the circle and make our way around. Simple.

WILLNCSU
10/26 09:33 AM

Should be one lane.  End of story.

Mulk
10/26 01:29 PM

Look kids Big Ben

madmax
10/26 05:19 PM

one lane means traffic would flow slower but be simpler to understand. two lanes facilitate getting in and out of the circle quicker for those who are making ‘right turns’ (i.e. Hillsborough westbound to Oberlin) and don’t get hindered by the more difficult straight or left turn.

it seems to me the key is to be in the correct lane BEFORE you get to the circle. more signs & earlier (i.e. Oberlin/Hillsborough Right Lane, Pullen Left Lane) could help with this.

P.S. i am too scared to try the circle on my bike unless it is after 2am.

ct
10/26 10:15 PM

It’s a well-intentioned failure—and I drive frequently in the UK and Ireland.

CX
10/27 12:26 AM

I’m looking forward to being back in Raleigh just so I can drive this thing on the way to NYP. It doesn’t seem that complicated, but if anything I think improved signage would reduce the number of accidents.

eh
10/27 07:55 AM

I think one main problem is that it’s not a large enough radius for you to regroup if you’ve made a wrong decision in the lane you chose. When that happens and someone freaks and tries to quickly change lanes, it clogs everything up and that’s when I’ve almost hit people. Perhaps if the radius were larger it would generally feel less scary and would work better. Pretty much every traffic circle you see in other parts of the world are big… no tiny tight turning radius. It does work better than the lights and the plantings in the circle are absolutely nicer to view as you drive down Hillsborough towards the circle. I think drivers in general are just dumb. I hate to say things like that, but in this case I see someone being dumb in that circle almost every day.

Kevin
10/27 09:31 AM

The inbred hillbillies in this state are not intelligent enough to understand roundabouts.

frank
10/27 09:36 AM

The Roundabouts have made me completely avoid Hillsborough Street. This way I don’t have to worry about running over students more concerned with playing Angry Birds on their phone and getting rear ended by foreign students.

Roundabouts are nothing more than city planners admitting they were stupid idiots when they designed the roadways.

bill
10/27 11:23 AM

WillNCSU:  Addendum to story: 2 Lanes.  End of addendum.

orulz
10/27 12:00 PM

JP: Your “pro tip” of using the outside lane every time will get you into a wreck every time you want to turn left, and it will also get you into a wreck if you want to go straight traveling north on Pullen.

There is no “easy rule” for navigating this roundabout and that’s why it’s a poor design.

From one direction you have to be in the left (inside) lane to go straight. From another, you have to be in the right (outside) lane to go straight. From the other directions, either lane can go straight. Confusing.

They should restripe it into a full two lane roundabout that operates consistently from every approach. The simple rule should be:
Turning left or making a U-turn: Left lane.
Going straight or turning right: Right lane.

frank
10/27 02:37 PM

How dare you claim Raleigh is full of inbred hillbillies when this city has grown with all the stupid yankees who think of nothing better to do on a cold night than pay $100 to watch foreigners go round and around on block of ice.

Take you stupid roundabouts back to your sophisticated town where the streets were laid out by how the cows walked home.

Synaesthete
10/27 05:10 PM

Well if any of those hillbillies are from Pittsboro, they shouldn’t have much of a problem with the Raleigh traffic circles.
This thread is kinda hilarious because you’ve got all the psychology of road rage and message board anger combined.  There in your mind is this image of your most hated stereotype, typing away at their computer keyboard or driving like an idiot behind the wheel.  The misdirected “hatred” of acts and ideas focused in the mind’s eye as some hypothetical identity; it’s fascinating, hilarious, a little embarrassing.  Most of the people messing up on the roundabout are probably the elderly, and shouldn’t you feel awful hating on them?

Marky Mark
10/27 05:47 PM

Wasn’t there another article in the N&O about this not too long ago? If I recall correctly, most of the accidents were people going straight through to Pullen from the inner lane getting hit by merging Hillsborough traffic. It is actually pretty deceiving. When you are on Eastbound Hillsborough, an oncoming car going straight through to Pullen almost appears like it is jumping lanes right in front of you. You can’t say that the accidents only occur because people can’t drive or are idiots/ hillbillies/Yankees/students playing Angry Birds. The whole idea of traffic engineering is to make things nearly idiot proof. Obviously they failed here.

fat ass
10/27 06:56 PM

who drives cars these days?

Franks
10/27 09:51 PM

I don’t have time to look for cars! I am smoking with one hand, drinkin a mocha with the other, and talking on my cell phone hands free!

Franks
10/27 09:52 PM

I don’t have time to look for cars! I am smoking with one hand, drinkin a mocha with the other, and talking on my cell phone hands free!

Andrew
10/28 12:25 AM

@Ashley - You keep saying “I think,” but thankfully, there are actually laws that govern driving, so we don’t have to rely on opinions. According to the NC driver’s manual, in a traffic circle you yield to traffic already in the circle, therefore, to your left. If two cars arrive at the circle at the same time, they can both keep moving, enter the circle at the same time, and they won’t run into each other. That’s one of the points about circles.

paker
10/31 09:34 AM

if people could only learn the basic rule of roundabout driving—- You Shall NOT Change Lanes—most accidents wouldn’t happen.

Matt
11/01 02:08 AM

Syn, you always seem to have something sensible to say.

Micah
11/01 03:20 AM

I predicted when I saw the first diagram of the traffic flow for this roundabout (NOT TRAFFIC CIRCLE!) that this would be a tremendously poor design. There are two reasons, both of which have already been stated here. First, the intersection is just TOO SMALL for a dual-lane roundabout. Second, the inconsistencies that exist between the different intersecting roads (most notably, the fact that both roundabout lanes exit on to southbound Pullen) makes the roundabout difficult and dangerous. Some say that “people will learn”, but it only takes ONE driver’s error to cause an accident that can cause traffic to completely halt for a solid hour. I drive through this intersection 6-10 times per week. I have seen several accidents here, and so many close calls that I wouldn’t even venture a guess as to the number. Many times I have seen people traveling east on Hillsborough pull into the roundabout when there is someone in the CENTER lane of the roundabout intending to proceed on to Pullen and therefore crosses in front of them. This is unexpected and the worst design fault with this roundabout. The round may not have yet been restriped to one lane as I previously predicted, but I think it is only a matter of time. It is the only logical thing to do. The fact that many drivers in the USA don’t understand basic traffic rules only makes the current implementation of the roundabout worse. I sometimes wonder what our driving climate would be like if getting a license was actually the slightest bit difficult. For instance, a German license ends up costing several thousand dollars and consists of around 40 hours of classroom instruction, including theory and the actual mechanics of an automobile.