TTA: A Plan Crashed And Derailed

JeffS
12/17 12:43 PM

Regional transit makes no sense without local transit.

The charlotte plan was a success because they zoned correctly around the line, and built it through an area that could be developed/redeveloped appropriately as the rail neared completion. It wasn’t about connecting points X with Y.

The proposed route ran through huge areas of land that can’t be densely developed to benefit from the line - basically the entire hillsborough stretch.

Raleigh leadership only seems capable of supporting something that’s tourism based, meaning it has to connect things like the RBC with the convention center - making it useless for residents. So… after you get rid of the TTA, maybe we can get Raleigh leaders to start serving the citizens instead of always looking for that next tourist nickel.

Jason!
12/17 12:58 PM

Ooo! ooo!

The absolute _BEST_ part of the regional rail plan?  It doesn’t go to the airport.  Sure, there’s a bus that goes from the Morrisville stop to the airport, but what regional transit system _doesn’t_ include the only major airport in the area as a full fledged rail stop?

gd
12/17 01:32 PM

no decent public transportation is going to kill what Raleigh has going for it.
I know I am trying to leave since I am sick of owning a car.  If it werent for such a bad economy, i would have been gone, but now i gotta do the adult thing and wait til I have a job somewhere else that has good public transportation.

gd
12/17 01:33 PM

Jason:  you can’t catch a train at any of the airports in NYC can you?  I don’t think you can.

Thats one thing I love about chicago.  The L goes right to both airports.  smart and convenient.

miamiblue
12/17 02:07 PM

Jason!
To answer your question, Miami, FL has such a transit system that ignores the airport, despite being heavily reliant on it for its tourism-based economy. There is a regional rail and a local rail, neither of which directly serve the Miami International Airport. Wanna go to the airport? Take a train or two and a bus or two. Never mind, just take a cab. Wanna use transit to get to the beach from the airport? Same scenario. How about from the airport to the port of Miami, so you can go on a cruise? Ditto.

This is definitely a system that the Triangle does NOT want to emulate. It would be a big mistake, one that south FL is just now realizing just a little too late.

Michael Peters
12/17 02:17 PM

gd: You can definitely catch a train to JFK in NYC from the subway. The A, E, J and Z all connect to the airports tram system.

joe
12/17 03:00 PM

The biggest issue is we have to include ‘Durham’ in the discussions? Let’s face it, does anybody really want to take the train to Durham?  A line to Chapel Hill, definitely.

Raleigh should have ignored “TTA” a long time ago and simply used Capital Area Transit CAT as the driving force behind light rail for Wake County.

ct
12/17 03:10 PM

You’re still holding to the misguided opinion that RTP is a “declining suburban office park”... but when the subject is Triangle Transit, it doesn’t matter. Everyone agrees that RTP will not generate significant ridership for Triangle Transit rail.

From inception TT/TTA has taken the path of least resistance: use the existing railroad corridors in the Triangle. That has never made much sense.

ct
12/17 03:11 PM

And when it comes to New York, it’s also possible to reach EWR (Newark) by rail.

Morty
12/17 03:14 PM

Of course the regional rail wouldn’t go to the airport. RDU gets tens of millions of dollars in revenue from parking facilities.  Why would they eliminate a huge revenue base, to be trendy and green?  Heavens no!  They will support and get on board with regional transit plans when it pays good money to do so. 

Folks, it has nothing to do with the best and brightest plans.  It has to do with people getting paid, as it always does.  “Visions” don’t get people paid.

ct
12/17 03:28 PM

To amplify the previous post: in fiscal year 2007-2008, parking revenues were the single highest source of revenue for RDU. They generated 33% of total revenue.

CJT
12/17 03:38 PM

joe,

I think a lot of people would like to get on a train to Durham, not just for commuting, but for the very different socio-economic culture there.  Raleigh still has more flash than substance.  Chapel Hill has more substance than flash.  And Durham has a good balance going.

ImagineRaleigh
12/17 03:40 PM

We should build a train to the beach. Charlotte does not have that. It should stop at Ulmstead park and have bike racks.

One day the paperwork for all this design work of our mass transit rail system is going to be laid out in a row and it will be longer than our rail system. You could do that today.

gd
12/17 03:42 PM

Raleigh is going to talk about it but never do it until it causes a huge f’n mess like the Marta and ATL.

Bill
12/17 03:43 PM

I agree that Raleigh needs to start with light rail in Raleigh. We can plan in advance when and how to connect to Chapel Hill and Durham when their transit systems are built.

ct
12/17 03:47 PM

I’m a former resident of Atlanta. MARTA took so long to plan and build that development largely passed it by. Oh sure, downtown Atlanta looks a lot more impressive today than in 1970, but downtown Atlanta’s market share of total jobs in the metro area is actually lower today than it was then—despite the billions that went into MARTA.

gd
12/17 03:56 PM

interesting ct.
I just heard from people i know who lived there talking about how big the mess was.

Kinda like Boston during the big dig.  That was AWFUL.

TVD
12/17 03:59 PM

Sometimes you need to start small.  I think that a line from downtown Raleigh, through NC State, and to the Fairgounds and RBC would be a great, if modest, start to our transit future.  The line could then be extended East and West as funds became available, but meanwhile, we would knit together a large swath of rider-ready fabric (students to the games, downwon visitors to the museum, park at the fairgrounds for downtown events, etc.), and begin showing folks in the Triangle what transit can really mean as a game changer for our built fabric.

This would be a modest investment, there are several institutional beneficiaries- NC State, RBC Areana, NC Museum- who might help move the ball forward, and we could get busy here in Raleigh while regional plans take shape.

arthurb3
12/17 04:04 PM

If the new combined Transit Station is ever built in Raleigh it would be nice to have a local train to connect it to Raleigh, RTP, and Durham.

JeffS
12/17 04:06 PM

Starting small is great, but laying rail should be about having dense development around the rail - not about getting tourists from their downtown hotel to the game.

A run of that length is not a “modest” investment, and as I mentioned earlier it runs through land that can’t be developed.

The increase in tax base is part of what pays for the investment. That’s all lost as you build through NCSU, the fairgrounds, the RBC center (which many here want to replace anyway).

Little Timmy
12/17 04:12 PM

I, for one, am so sick and tired of this nah-nah-nah-boo-boo crap of Raleigh vs. Durham vs. Chapel Hill.  One of the great things about living in the Triangle is being able to enjoy the good stuff each town has to offer, most of it within a 45-minute drive.  Taken separately, each town leaves a lot to be desired.  Taken together, the Triangle is quite a decent place to live and work.  Waxing authoritative on “substance” vs. “flash” doesn’t advance the conversation one little bit.

CJT
12/17 04:19 PM

Little Timmy,

Ahem…I was disagreeing with Joe who thought no one wanted to go to Durham.  I was advocating travel between all three cities:  They all have something to offer and have room to grow.  So by in large you agree and yet you’re trying to argue with my statement.  That’s the sort of thing that doesn’t advance a discussion smarty pants.

Betsy
12/17 04:19 PM

I think Ted (TVD) is right and we could start with a streetcar system that is integrated into existing automobile travel lanes - removing the need for acquiring separate right-of-way.  Providing just one axis that serves key sites from the Fairgrounds to NCSU to the Capitol would directly enable a lot of Raleigh people to do a lot of Raleigh things without jumping in a car. 

Supporting Raleigh residents who need to get around the town they live in is much more supportable than subsidizing the trans-regional commute for someone who chose to live a 40-minute drive from where they need to be every day.

TacoTodd
12/17 04:52 PM

Did I write this piece 5 years ago? No, that’s right, I wrote it 10 years ago and its echo around every 5 years. 

Nice article, see you again in 2015 (hopefully not).

gd
12/17 05:17 PM

Im sure by 2015 Raleigh will be saying, man we shoulda started this rail project years ago.  By 2020, Raleigh will say damn, more research shows people here want good public transportation.  by 2025, Raleigh might have a piece of rail down for whatever rail system it choses.

CX
12/17 06:02 PM

I agree with TVD that Raleigh should start small. Even though this site is specific to Raleigh, I think starting small here also means staring relatively small in Durham and Chapel Hill. I also agree with CTJ that Durham has more substance, although I would probably call it less sprawly type development (ignoring southpoint).

Raleigh does have districts that are worth connecting: downtown, nc state, fairgrounds. I disagree that the latter two areas don’t have potential for increased density. The area by the fairgrounds and RBC has lots of open and underdeveloped land. The NC State Student population will only increase, and while there is not necessarily completely open land, there are areas such as Pullen Road across Western and pockets of decks that can be redeveloped into mid to high rises.

An extension of a transit line towards I-440 along Capital would open up thousands of acres of land ripe for denser development. Land uses do have to change.

I don’t know if the same approach can be taken along the rail line going in North Raleigh—probably not.Into South Raleigh, there is also potential to densify the area.

Connection to the Airport, RTP, and Durham would be appropriate goals.

Bill
12/17 06:06 PM

For a Raleigh streetcar line, all we have to do is dig up Hillsborough St.  We should start at the end they just finished replacing.

JeffS
12/17 06:11 PM

Again, why do sites like the airport keep coming up?

How often does the average person go to the airport? And the same goes for the RBC center, fairgrounds, convention center, proposed Dix park. These are all destinations wished for by people who have zero intentions of getting out of their cars on a daily basis.

In my ideal world, a rail would be used daily by the people that live on it (or drive to a park and ride) to get to, first and foremost, essential services - jobs, grocery stores, etc.

ct
12/17 06:51 PM

Atlanta and DC airport transit stations get heavy use. It’s not just locals traveling out of town; it’s visitors and business travelers coming into town.

tjoad
12/17 08:27 PM

The idea of not going to the airport is because there are no existing tracks in place there.  Therefore the costs would be tremendous, on top of the already too-expensive proposal.

I also support the notion of starting small and think the Hillsborough St. rail (not streetcar) could serve as a demonstration.  I’ve heard many times before that having even a small rail transit system helps greatly in securing federal funds.

JRD
12/17 10:58 PM

I for one am a fan of starting small in Raleigh, but at the same time we wouldnt really need to have these conversations from the start if Raleigh had advocated density from the start.  And by that I mean having the RBC downtown and all the suburban office parks.  I dont see how anything rail based would ever work with durham and chapel hill, but then again, Im not too familiar with them.
Rail systems failing to connect to airports is not new.  Dulles airport just finished a 4 billion dollar subway system that does not connect to the Metro.  Too much invested in parking decks, cabs and buses.

ct
12/17 11:03 PM

Raleigh didn’t advocate higher density from the start because nobody wanted higher density in the 1950s and 1960s. For that matter, most people still don’t.

ImagineRaleigh
12/18 12:58 AM

Could the problem be that this project was designed to give money to those people who design things. Perhaps rail is code for fat pay checks to those who arrange payment to those who design things.

There are sections of the Raleigh Greenway which have been designed three or four times and nothing has been built. Maybe we should get rid of the people who promise us things and spend our money on design but never get anything built.

I noticed one board member of the transit system who proposes things, arranges the spending on design, then nothing is built…

We were promised forty new Greenway miles which was to be finished in the next two years and yet the first mile has not been started…  We have spent millions with the design people who honor one of our transit board members for influncing the purchase of such cool Greenway designs.

Maybe this same person is soaking up all of our transit money so they can win another award which they plan to use when they run for Mayor of Raleigh…

Taylor
12/18 02:05 PM

Neither the region nor its cities were built to support a mass transit system.  There is too much sprawl and a lack of destination centers to build a foundation around.  So the reality we face is that any rail system we propose will not serve a large segment of our population, and would not be profitable in the short term (next decade). 

It seems that the long term success (i.e. increased dense development, less sprawl and reduced auto traffic) of anything built in the coming years will suffer in some way to mitigate negative short term ridership numbers and financial health. 

In other words, we can’t just build a transport system to match what we hope our area will one day look like, and simply cross our fingers for congruent development that may never come. 

It seems that the Triangle is not attracting enough people who want to live in an environment with sufficient density to support rail transportation.  For every young professional who aspires to live in a downtown condo in Raleigh or Durham, there are three families moving to a quarter acre lot in North Raleigh, Cary or the smaller suburbs.  With a growth pattern like that, it seems the area simply isn’t in a position to build a sensible rail system. 

The challenge is formidable, and I suspect that has more to do with the TTA’s lack of achievement more than anything else.  There simply isn’t a good answer right now to appease all interest and stakeholders.

orulz
12/18 03:30 PM

Again New Raleigh comes with a smear article about transit plans in the region, but yet clearly fails to do any research, instead relying on “truthyness” and “gut feelings” to make points.

You complain that they’re fickle and can’t come up with a plan that works and stick with it. But do I need to remind you how many times the plans for BART and Washington Metro were changed before construction even started?

You complain that the plan treats RTP as a hub. Have you even bothered to read the N&O article about the latest revision of the plan? Light rail will now be Raleigh-centric. They’re specifically ditching the idea of light rail through RTP, and instead just planning to run a few dozen commuter trains a day to/from Durham, Burlington, and even Greensboro - on existing tracks.

Light rail would be a much smaller part of the plan, and would run roughly from downtown Cary throug downtown Raleigh, on to Triangle Town Center. As you mention, the TTC to DTR corridor follows Atlantic Avenue. I don’t know if you’ve ever driven down South Blvd in Charlotte, but the similarities between South Boulevard in about 1995 and Atlantic Avenue in Raleigh today are pretty amazing. Sleepy, somewhat industrial corridor in the city’s “favored quarter” that runs along affluent neighborhoods, industrial areas waiting for development, and lower income areas alike.

Everybody always says AIRPORT AIRPORT AIRPORT, but think about it though. It’s going to be expensive to get there. Why? Umstead’s in the way, for one. Can’t build a transit line through there. Gotta go around it, one way or another. And thanks to Umstead, basically the last three miles of any line to the airport would have to go through a development no-mans-land, where nobody lives and nobody works.

I guess a line along Glenwood to the airport does make sense, eventually. Glenwood was clearly built so that it could be widened into an 8-lane highway. They could probably forgo the extra 2 lanes, and instead use it for light rail tracks. But that’s way more expensive than following the railroad, and running in the median of Glenwood is not exactly great for encouraging urban development. Given the above, I don’t think it should be a top priority.

BTW, guess whose transit line doesn’t go to the airport but yet is hugely successful? Charlotte. You even mention the success of Charlotte in your article and in the next breath talk about how TTA’s plan is a failure because it doesn’t reach the airport.

Bill
12/18 04:08 PM

Every time I read someone complaining about the train not going to the airport, I see it as a statement that “I won’t be riding the train on a regular basis but I would love to take one to the airport twice a year, if I’m not running late and am traveling alone.”

gd
12/18 04:13 PM

Bill:  I wonder if thats how most people are feeling in general.  I know Charlotte is exceeding expectations of ridership.  I have several friends who wouldn’t touch public transportation with a stick, while I want nothing but good, reliable public transportation so I can get rid of my car.

Bill
12/18 04:35 PM

I think there are plenty of people who would ride the train and I agree with Orulz, the train will change the development patterns, as it did in Charlotte.  People who complain that it is too late for the train have a weakness of imagination coupled with a lack of historical perspective.  If you can remember Raleigh 20-years ago and see how much it has changed, while knowing that the population will double again in the next 20 years, you can see we will be much better off with something similar to Charlotte.  People were saying it was too late 20 years ago, too.

ct
12/18 04:45 PM

Who says the population of Raleigh will double in the next 20 years? That is highly speculative, although I’m sure that landowners in Raleigh would like to see it. Raleigh has basically zero annexation opportunity going forward.

It is possible or even probably that Wake County will double in the next 20 years, but nearly all that growth will be outside the Raleigh city limits… principally in East Wake, and to a lesser degree in South Wake.

Don’t assume that all those people in East Wake will be working inside the Raleigh city limits.

JeffS
12/18 04:54 PM

Yes, we should anticipate more sprawl, which will create more traffic, which will increase land values and density in town.

Of course then all the people who have moved out to bumfuk for a cheaply built house, a yard and “good schools” (yes, we all know what that’s code for) will then turn around and want everyone to spend money building them roads to drive back into town.

We seem to have no problem paying for sprawl, but everyone gets all up in arms when asked to pay for smarter growth.

Remember, the more of us that are on the train, the easier it will be for you to drive.

gd
12/18 04:59 PM

Has Charlotte expanded their Lynx train at all? Does anyone know?

ct
12/18 05:01 PM

Passion or even well-founded argument against sprawl notwithstanding, it’s Wake County voters (not Raleigh voters) who will decide the question. And as you’ve seen in the recent school board elections, Wake County voters outside Raleigh essentially don’t care about ITB. So just lean back and enjoy it while every acre of farmland and forest between the Raleigh ETJ and the Wake-Johnston county line is turned into suburbs. And Johnston is just as aggressive.

Bill
12/18 05:16 PM

“Who says the population of Raleigh will double in the next 20 years?”

City planners do and they’re talking about the city, not suburbs:  http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/6557486/

The growth for the Raleigh/Cary Metropolitan area is projected to more than double.

And yes, there will still be the pro-sprawl lobby but the downtown core and density will continue to be more attractive.  Downtown appears to be the place where Johnson County comes to party.  And like DC and NYC, there is an instant jump in value when it is announced that commuter trains and light rail will service an town/burb.  Again look at Charlotte, which was even sprawlier than Wake County: build the trains, which lead to denser development and retail, which leads to more trains and more development in the same model.

ct
12/18 05:20 PM

Watch the language about population very carefully. They’re not saying that the population of Raleigh WITHIN THE CITY LIMITS will swell to 700,000. That number is for “metro” which includes Cary and probably all the other municipalities like Garner and Morrisville that share a boundary with Raleigh.

Bill
12/18 05:23 PM

“Has Charlotte expanded their Lynx train at all? Does anyone know? “

You can see the planned updates here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LYNX_Rapid_Transit_Services

Bill
12/18 05:29 PM

So, CT, you’re saying that 700,000 in the Raleigh/Cary/Morrisville area by 2030 is too optimistic?  I have news for you, the population already doubled from what you currently imagine.  Can we build a train now?

From the N&O:  As of July 1, 2008 the estimated population of the Raleigh-Durham-Cary CSA was 1,690,557,[2] while the Raleigh-Cary Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) was estimated at 1,088,765,[2] making it the nation’s fastest growing metropolitan area.[8]

gd
12/18 06:04 PM

Charlotte clearly has their ish together.  Thanks for the link Bill.

I really dislike Charlotte in general, but I swear, seeing that they are on top of things make it look better than Raleigh to me right about now as public transportation is becoming very important to me.

ct
12/18 06:23 PM

Sorry to bust your bubble, but the “Raleigh Cary MSA” is defined as all of Wake County plus all of Johnston County. Yeah, that’s how the Census Bureau names these things.

For that matter, the “Raleigh-Durham-Cary CSA” is defined as that Raleigh-Cary MSA plus the Durham CSA (which covers everything from Chapel Hill to the Vorginia state line) plus the Dunn MSA (go figure).

I stand by my assertion: it’s a little ridiculous to say that the population of Raleigh within the city limits will grow to 700,000. That’s 75% growth from today’s number, for a city that cannot expand its boundaries because it’s hemmed in both other municipalities and by Falls Lake. The only way Raleigh can grow 75% is by putting a five-story apartment or condo complex on virtually every major intersection in the city. Of course, that’s what Mitch had in mind when he drew up the FLUM. But I don’t believe that private developers will ever build so many apartments and condos inside the city limits, when there is short-term cheap competition from new suburbs in East Wake.

art
12/19 01:27 AM

Thank you orulz for your post.  News tends to be more informative with actual facts. The Bush administration CHANGED the criteria AFTER the TTA’s plan was already formulated.  We were the only area with a system as far along in the planning stages as we were whose Senators did not ask the Federal government to grandfather us in.  AND we were the only system as far along that did not get funded. 

I am tired of the density argument.  Other cities have dense development around the trains because their systems are much older.  Newer systems see development over time become more dense close to the transit.

miamiblue
12/20 12:49 PM

I agree with orulz, but still maintain that a train going to the airport is important for making this area a truly transit-oriented area. I don’t know much about Charlotte’s system, but I do know that it is still a fairly new system. Does anyone know if there was any consideration for the airport for future expansion, or if it was just completely ignored altogether?

To me, having the airport connected is not an excuse for not riding the system if it is left off. I would love for the opportunity to be able to leave my car at home to get around - that is why I currently live in an area where I can walk to many thing. However, there are a lot of people who may not otherwise ride the rail but would consider it if they could take it to the airport. I know a lot of people who travel frequently for work who would love to have this option, not to mention people coming to town for business and conferences who would love this option.

I don’t think it’s a dealbreaker to getting things started, but I still think it needs to be carefully considered. I know that the Metrorail in Miami loses out on a LOT of ridership because of its poorly planned route. And that is in a metro that is much larger than ours.

In the end, I just hope people can get past their transit inhibitions and just listen with an open mind. I know people are already complaining about the traffic in the area (which is nonexistant to people who come from areas with REAL traffic issues), so we really need to be considering that in addition to the fact that the area WILL grow. It doesn’t matter what the actual numbers are, if you’re already complaining about the traffic now, you’ll be wailing about it in 5 years and spending a lot more time in your car. That goes especially for all those commuters coming from east Wake, Johnston, etc.

ncmyk
12/20 03:51 PM

perhaps charlotte’s transit is successful because its based on things we can’t really talk about - race and class (oops).

they started out with rail going north and south and buses east and west.  the only way (supposedly) that you can get the rich to ride transit is to put them on the light rail - they’ll never use the bus - that’s for the poor folks.

And one more thing, the rumor was that NationsBank (now BofA) paid for the city of charlotte’s main transit station so that it would be relocated and the undesirables coming off the bus wouldn’t be right in front of their new headquarters tower.  don’t worry, they balanced it out by hiring one of the state’s prominant african-american architects to design it.

when i lived it charlotte, they all wanted to bring back their street cars (they had them before san francisco was famous for them). i even worked on the plans to send it through their convention center.

if charlotte’s is successful, its because they only have to worry about charlotte.  the triangle both benefits and is hampered by being made up of several towns.  we try to work together, but often work for our own interests.  charlotte annex practically the entire county and as soon as you cross the city line, you’re in cow country.

Bill
12/21 12:31 PM

I think we can talk about race and class.  Public transportation and race have a co-mingled history that precedes Rosa Parks.  And the head of Mecklenburg Transit was very forthright about Charlotte’s plans to address decades of poor service to the lower classes and minority communties - those who depend the most on the services.  Providing a way for hospital and shopping mall workers to get to their jobs without a car provides benefits to all citizens by keeping the cost of living and wages lower and thereby keeping the cost of services lower.  Sit-in on a city transit meeting sometime. They discuss issues like needing to get employees from downtown to Brier Creek and the needs of Rex and Wake Med.  Look at that nice trolley stop shelter at the corner of Glenwood and Harvey: not too long ago it would have been filled with black nannies, and maids, coming and going to work in the wealthy neighborhoods.  Maybe once black people weren’t forced to sit in the back of the bus, white people began to resent public transportation but that seems to be changing quickly.

ct
12/21 12:57 PM

In Atlanta, despite the city’s largely accurate self-description as the “City Too Busy to Hate”, race played a substantial role in the eventuation of MARTA. Fulton and Dekalb counties bought into MARTA by approving the incremental sales tax to fund construction and operation of rail. However, the surrounding counties—which were all 90% white at the time—did not. Thus MARTA was doomed to playing a relatively small role in the metro area. Most of the population growth over the last 25 years occurred in those surrounding counties.

The city of Atlanta has done a remarkably good job in preserving a racial balance inside the city limits. That said, many parts of MARTA serve neighborhoods that are almost completely African-American. Fulton County outside Atlanta, which is largely white, did receive some MARTA extensions that helped to maintain support for the system among white voters.

In the end, what differentiates MARTA from the DC Metro is reach. The DC Metro was far more successful in penetrating the suburbs.

Taylor
12/21 03:51 PM

Charlotte has a genuine central destination, and the Triangle does not.  So the comparison doesn’t seem appropriate to me.  The closest thing we have to a legitimate destination or area of semi-density is downtown Raleigh, which is small and would, as I’ve heard before, “blow away without the state government presence”. 

Aside from the downtown areas of Raleigh, Chapel Hill and Durham,everywhere else is just a no-mans land of sprawl.  Brier Creek is perhaps one of the worst examples of it.  That area is a virtual death trap for pedestrians.  Who wants to take a train there, only to get out and have to dodge traffic and traverse mammoth parking lots between big box retailers? 

Our downtown areas are easy to navigate by car and have ample, inexpensive parking.  Unless the price of gas rises to $4.00 a gallon, I just don’t see the upside of riding a train to them unless you are planning to drink. 

Plain and simple, the Triangle is plagued by the “Brier Creek” mindset in regard to development.  I’m in favor of mass transit as much as anyone else, but as long as the people who live here opt for cookie-cutter houses on quarter acre lots in the suburbs versus dense, urban form neighborhoods, then rail transit just doesn’t make sense.

ct
12/21 04:09 PM

Taylor has 20-20 vision. Remember, the #1 source of new arrivals in the Triangle is New York. Those newcomers don’t have to be lectured about the virtues of high-density living. They know them quite well—and yet they are fleeing high-density living as fast as “cookie-cutter houses on quarter acre lots in the suburbs” (CCHOQALITS) can be built here.

Most people who have moved here in the last 25 years like CCHOQALITS; if they didn’t like it, they wouldn’t have moved here. And they’re not listening to Malthusian projections of doom and gloom. Conversely, if somebody wants to live in a high-density environment, there are many opportunities for them up north.

Fact is, the ITB proponents of high density for Raleigh may win the battle but lose the war. Increasingly, decisions about future development will be made by voters not only OTB but outside Raleigh.

JeffS
12/21 04:12 PM

Upside? How about the ability to navigate your city without having to own a car at all?

That’s probably too much for most to even imagine.

Noo Yawk
12/21 04:37 PM

Those people from New York aren’t coming from the city, they’re coming from suburbs.  They aren’t fleeing density, they’re coming here for the jobs.  The companies are relocating here because we have a reputation for being progressive and promoting education.  But if the transplants make the public schools more like the schools they left in New Jersey, we’ll all fail.

ct
12/21 11:18 PM

Guess it depends on one’s circle of acquaintances. I know a fair number of folks who bailed out of NYC proper, but there are former LI and NJ people here too. As to why companies relocate here, it’s a complex decision. Progressivity and schools do help, but other factors are low costs (salaries, taxes, real estate), a state government that is business-friendly, and the absence of unions.

Betsy
12/22 01:05 PM

Everyone argues that downtown Raleigh would “blow away without state government,” but is state government going away?

ct
12/22 03:10 PM

State gov’t isn’t going away, but neither is it likely to grow. Also, the salary distribution of state employees is lower than the salary distribution of private-sector employers like RBC or Progress Energy. Nor does state gov’t, on a relative basis, spend a lot of money to buy services from other downtown-based entities. So in short, state gov’t provides a stable floor underneath downtown Raleigh, but little else.

JeffS
12/22 03:41 PM

At best, state gov keeps a couple of lunch joints in business. It’s hardly a positive for the city.

Bill
12/22 03:51 PM

That is a ridiculous assertion.  You might suggest the working proles, eating bag lunches, offer much to the city economy and I would still disagree. But there are a large number of attorneys, lobbyists and other high income individuals who work near the capitol in jobs that directly feed on the State government.  There is a big pile of money that gets allocated every year and companies want to be near that budget$.  And don’t underestimate the value of stable floor for a city.

Betsy
12/22 03:57 PM

On the transit issue, it is remarkable that the State spends so much taxpayer money subsidizing free and low-cost parking for its commuting employees, in an area the most richly served by transit of any place east of Charlotte.

ct
12/22 04:06 PM

Many state employees live outside the city limits of Raleigh. At the salaries that many of them get, they’ve already been priced out of Raleigh—so they live in Garner, Knightdale, etc. I don’t blame state gov’t for free or low-cost parking for these folks; it’s one of the few perks they get, and at those salary levels, having to pay full rate for parking would be an economic hardship. The best transit solution for them is commuter trains operated by NCRR, but that’s a while off. Among other things, somebody will have to build a decent train station in downtown. The Amtrak station today is unsuited for commuter trains, and it’s a hike from there to the state gov’t buildings.

gd
12/22 04:24 PM

And many of us live inside the beltline and downtown.

Betsy
12/22 04:28 PM

It’s too bad that those low-paid employees who choose to live in Raleigh near a transit line or where they can walk or bike to work aren’t getting a $3000/year subsidy* for their travel choices. 
.

I can think of two state employee ouseholds that are doing just this, but they aren’t rewarded, whereas we reward un-green choices of residence and transportation handsomely, with free roads, free parking, etc. 

* very low estimate of the amortized annual cost of a surface parking space (I have figures ranged about $3K to $5K from ten years ago).  it’s up around $10K for a parking deck space.

Andrew
12/22 04:55 PM

Like transit for Raleigh, but don’t know how to do it right?

One option (out of many available) is to officially designate future transit lines and stations with relatively cheap signs and maps.

Commission a special fleet of buses to travel these routes temporarily, but on a regular transit schedule. Meanwhile, track the ridership while working to acquire the funding/land/technical expertise to lay railroad track. After studying riders, be willing to tweak routes and add stations.

(These buses should be painted to indicate that they’re part of the future transit system. As ugly as a fake-trolley-on-bus-chassis is, it does have a certain visual distinctiveness.)

Tell people to vote with their feet. If a certain capacity isn’t reached, then transit in that area isn’t viable.

It’s going to take vision. Will light rail in Raleigh target tourists? commuters? drinkers? lower-income neighborhoods? politicians? sports fans? shoppers? travel to other towns?

Transit CAN serve all of these needs but MUST be designed to serve two or three of the most important needs. The rest we’ll have to drive to.

Toes will get stepped on. Land will get seized. Taxes will increase. But if planners can REALLY show how this benefits Raleigh as a whole AND the individual rider, this plan has a chance of success. But it’s going to require a hard sell:

For people/interests that don’t get a dedicated rail line, add regular bus service. For people who are displaced by rail lines, give them low-interest loans to buy a new home. For people who gripe about taxes, SHOW how their land values will appreciate. Play up the environmental savings. Play up the convenience if there IS any convenience).

Harry Seaward
12/22 07:07 PM

i don’t care what they do since i won’t be riding a train or a bus.  i don’t like the smell of urine or when strangers stand close to me, and after a while thats what all public transport becomes- vessels for transporting urine and smelly people.  also, i don’t want anymore public transports bringing hoodlums and vagrants into my neighborhood.

JeffS
12/22 07:17 PM

How will you ever get your yard mowed, toilets cleaned and SUV washed without the hoodlums Harry?

Gd
12/23 04:27 PM

Jeff;  apparently Harry has never lived little ol’ Raleigh or at least has never been on public transportation.

The queen of england recently road public transit to get to her destination.

I’m glad you’re above the Queen Harry.

gd
12/23 04:29 PM

Lived was supposed to be left.
damn typos.

Harry Seaward
12/23 06:14 PM

i actually spent countless hours on the jubilee line from west hampstead to westminster, then switched to the circle line and rode that to sloan square going to and from work every day.  so i guess that makes me equal to her majesty. anyway, when little ole raleigh has something as efficient and useful as the tube, i will gladly hop on. until then i won’t waste my time.

gd
12/23 06:19 PM

but i thought public transpo was a vessel for urine, stinky people and strangers that you don’t want standing next to you…not for people as good as yourself.

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