A couple months ago, when I fist started to figure out my way around, I couldn’t help but notice how many cops patrol downtown. Usually this would cross my mind as I was trying to remember if it was legal in North Carolina to turn left on a red light. It is in Oregon (as long as it’s between two one-way streets), which is where I moved from, by the way. Often I would remember that this is a West coast anomaly just in time, as a cruiser would be sure to cross my line of sight. (The one time I didn’t remember until after executing said left on red, I was lucky that there was not a cop in sight.)
On Memorial Day Monday, driving the 1.8 miles from Morning Times to my house, I passed no less than five cops. Five. At noon. On a holiday. Am I unaware of some alternative Memorial Day traditions that trade watermelon and cookouts for armed robbery and vandalism, or is that excessive? But, since I have yet to see a crime happen, the months of cop sighting led me to believe that perhaps Raleigh was just better patrolled than other places. This led to a little investigation of my own.
According to the 2006 US Census Bureau estimates (the most recent, reliable numbers I could find), the city of Raleigh has about 356,000 people. That puts us about on par with Cincinnati (347,000), St. Louis (332,000), and Minneapolis (372,000). Personally, I was surprised that Raleigh matched those cities so closely, but that’s beside the point.
The Raleigh Police Department boasts a force of 776 officers, which works out to approximately one cop per 458 people. Actually, probably a bit less by now since Raleigh’s population has surely grown in the last three years, but let’s just go with it. That sounded impressive enough (to me at least, who until recently had never thought about such things) until I saw that St Louis has approximately 1,400. That’s one for every 248 St. Louis residents. Hmm…So much for my theory. We’re also behind Cincinnati (one per 314 residents) but edged out just ahead of Minneapolis (one for every 466). It’s a small sample of course, but based on this, I’d put us at somewhat below average at best.
Unfortunately, this leaves me back at square one—why on earth do I see so many cops downtown. I hardly ever see them in other parts of the ‘city limits’ but the downtown grid seems to be flooded with them. Please understand, this is not a complaint (it’s a pretty well established fact that there are some…um…less desirable areas around downtown, and I appreciate the RPD presence as much as the next person passing through) just a point of confusion.
Last week, in the spirit of encouraging comments, I had a pretty straightforward question to put out. That’s not the case this week. But, now that I’ve debunked my own theory, does anyone out there have an enlightening explanation to share with this confused Raleigh newbie?
Newly Raleigh
Let’s Talk About…Cops
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Silky Johnson06/12 03:50 PM
no donut shops on the outskirts of town
Rusty Shackleford06/12 03:52 PM
Its RPD
It doesn’t have to make sense,
They just do what they want
Ralphie Emerson06/12 03:57 PM
Well,
The Courthouse, Central Prison, and the main police station are all downtown so Im sure they spend a lot of time at those places doing paperwork and what not. Not to mention Raleigh’s downtown isn’t exactly the largest, so you have plenty of chances to run into them.
Elphaba06/12 04:26 PM
What Ralphie said. Morning Times is about .2 miles from the downton Raleigh PD station, and the deck where they keep their cruisers is right down the street.
You’re bound to see a lot of cops there, especially if you happen to come by during shift change.Ken Metzger06/12 04:42 PM
Obviously, there is more density downtown, as well. The difference is that almost all of the cops stay in their cars. That might make it seem like there are more of them. If you saw three cops walking around and two cruisers, then it probably wouldn’t have been as noticeable.
I am not sure if you counted them, but there are also the “Capitol Police”. They “guard” the state owned properties, so their presence is mostly downtown. (Talk about a budget cut waiting to happen.)
platitudes06/12 04:56 PM
look at our crime rate…then look up the three cities you mentioned
smitty06/12 05:02 PM
Didn’t you ever play sim city? You put the police where the crime is.
oakcity06/12 05:07 PM
they’re out lookin’ for the barrel monster.
they need to be patrolling the neighborhoods adjacent to new bern ave.
salley06/12 05:54 PM
From my quick google search it seems to me that Raleigh’s crime rate is quite significantly below that of St Louis, Minneapolis and Cincinnati in all categories.
Further, the crime stats published in the N&O generally show the Downtown District to be one of the lowest crime districts in the city.
I think you see the cruisers because the citywide police station, courthouse, jail, capitol police etc are all in the core of downtown. I dont think a lot of them are patrolling downtown as much as they are on their way from the hq to a beat somewhere else in the city.ben06/12 06:02 PM
The downtown Wachovia was being robbed while this article was being posted. Interesting.
revolu06/12 06:33 PM
i think aurthur is onto something.
WiseOne06/12 09:01 PM
Great post, there are too many police…and we can say the same about firepeople. Dig deeper Kate G. and look at our city budget to see what percentage we pay this public safety team. Please run for office so I can vote for you. All other politicians are scared to speak out against such waste.
DPK06/13 12:19 AM
Are you really complaining that there are too many police? Idiot. I fail to see how that’s a bad thing. Why must everything turn into a political argument.
Also, Ralphie pretty much summed up why you see more cops downtown than anywhere else. Their offices are down there and cruisers are stored there. Pretty much all of city government is down there too. I’d be more surprised if I didn’t see a ton of cops downtown.Matt W06/13 11:09 AM
Not that it really matters, but Raleigh is nowhere near the size of St. Louis, Minneapolis, or Cinci. I have lived in the first two cities, as well as Raleigh. The big difference is that the actual cities of St. Louis and MSP do not include any of the suburbs, while Raleigh stretches very far north, south, and west from downtown.
Look at the sizes of the metro areas (MSAs), Raleigh is nowhere close:
Minneapolis (#16): 3.2 million
St. Louis (#18): 2.8 million
Cincinnati (#24): 2.15 million...
Raleigh (#50): 1.1 million, and that includes Cary.
Data pulled from this site: http://www.census.gov/popest/metro/metro.html
The Jenius06/13 11:56 AM
Mostly so they can make sure and arrest folks like UliveUburn. What crap was that? I’d pay the 360 for the barrels.
wow06/14 01:14 AM
well well well dpk. nice way to start with the name calling and all. not sure if kate was really complaining, just asking a question. where are the political arguments? are we wound a little too tight? wtf? someone asking another to run for office is not really a stance is it? good points, kate. i would vote for you too… only if you’re not republican. THAT is a stance.
adam!!06/14 11:57 PM
never, never, ever trust the police. whatever they tell you, they are never on your side.
DPK06/15 07:04 AM
@wow:
I was referring to WiseOne’s comments and not Kate’s. I have no problem with Kate as she was simply posing comments on research she had done previously. I’m perfectly ok with that. However I’m not ok with people questioning why there are too many public servants, particularly public servants that put their lives on the line for the community. By questioning their numbers you are basically condemning them to the unemployment line in a crappy economy. Way to go.
Jenn06/15 08:46 AM
This article caught my eye b/c I lived in Minneapolis for 3 years before moving back to Raleigh (after being away for 8 years or so). The thing that I couldn’t believe when coming back were all the cops! I could only chalk it up to speeding tickets and control through fear. I admittedly have a cynical view of the police force and adam!! is right, never trust a cop you are guilty until proven innocent.
matt06/15 09:56 AM
DPK, that is just crazy. We’re not doing anything by “questioning their numbers” (oh, God forbid we QUESTION anything about them). Did you mean “SO many”? Because you said “TOO many”, which means you already know there are too many.
And the unemployment lines? In a crappy economy? Once again, God freakin’ FORBID they might go through anything the rest of us are likely to go through.
They’re not some privileged class that lives among us, you know. They’re our neighbors and citizens just like us, but you know what? Most of us are scared half to death of any interaction with them whatsoever. They could change that, but they don’t seem to sincerely WANT to. What they seem to want is for us to be intimidated. That serves some purposes well, I suppose, but it tosses other purposes right out the window.
News from our Shoes06/15 12:41 PM
WOW and others who posted such valid points, I do applaud you all, but for those morons, such as DPK, who posts just to read what he writes, is of no consequence to anyone at all.
This person, who is offended that someone questions anyone’s inquiries as to how many cops there are downtown, when obviously there is no need for so many.
One reason for sure is to get rid of the “riff-raff” from Moore Square Transit Station and the Park that is undergoing major redevelopment into “World Class” status”
The other is to deter the homeless, because, having been one who used to shoot city of Raleigh city Counccil meetings, I know how many people; especially, men who used to co me forth and state how they did not feel “safe” coming downtown from their posh Glenwood South residences.
I think all of Raleigh needs an enema.
When there is trouble, get a oop to arrest all the homeless…yeah…that will solve the problem…yet, problems still, not only exist, but still arise.
Like one posted, while all the cops are downtown patrolling homeless hot spots and transit stations, banks like Wachovia are being robbed….hmmm…interesting.
Those who live in remote areas of Raleigh, who are still being plagued with crimes, I wonder do they feel safe in their neighborhoods or do they come downtown like everyone else does.
If the downtown area is that bad..then why this area of infestation still get the patronage it does?
Let me guess…
it’s the infiltration of cops that harrass the youth and the honeless, who make all of Raleigh elitists feel safe.
Now, I get it.
blzbub06/15 01:29 PM
@ matt > It’s exactly the kind of economic situation that we are in right now that drives crime numbers up. Cutting law enforcement at such a time is probably not a good idea.
@ News from our Shoes > If by “Raleigh elitists” you are referring to law abiding citizens who act responsibly while downtown, then yes they do have a right to feel safe.
There’s no problem with questioning the numbers, but let’s not insult the very people who protect us. I’m guessing that some of the negative commenters here have had run-ins with the police before. Maybe you should consider the behavior that led those run-ins…
DPK06/15 01:33 PM
Wow, look who’s throwing name around now. As I and others have said before, the reason why there are so many cops downtown is because most government work is downtown. Police headquarters is downtown along with central prison, the courthouse, the parking where cruisers are kept, etc. You’d be an idiot yourself to think that you wouldn’t see so many cops in a location like that. Especially during shift changes. There’s no way around it especially with the grid system downtown sports.
Take off your tinfoil hat that the police are out to get you and know your own facts before you post. If you don’t like it, get out of your “remote area of Raleigh” and do something about it rather than complain; form a neighborhood watch and/or use hoa dues to hire a security guard to patrol the neighborhood at night. Stop griping about all the people that go downtown. They chose to live there, they pay higher fees to do so. There are a lot of living options downtown and not everyone down there is a “Raleigh elitist”.
I wasn’t saying that police are above unemployment, but if you think it’s ok for people to lose jobs just because you see too many of them in one area, that’s your own beef. I hope you also realize that statistically the most rampantly reported area for crime in the entire city of Raleigh is just a few blocks west from Fayetteville Street due to gang violence.Jeb06/15 02:26 PM
Oooh. You just got frisked.
News from our Shoes06/15 04:50 PM
@DPK…why dont you get a life….you obviously dont have one…unless yuo count the one in which you live in that glass house you so safely reside in; where your world is ideal.
Give me a break…it is a no brainer that cops are needed downtown, that is not the question…the point here is why are there SO MANYccops downtown?Maybe English is not your forte, but that is all the entire issue consista os.
Stop making a mountain out of a molehill…climb down out of that ivory tower of yours Rapunzel, come back to reality anfd deal with the issue that is presented here instead of your own self imposed idiosyncrasies.
i never stated nor implied that the cops are out to get me, but of course, why should i explain this to you…someone who will read even more into this than I have typed….WAAAAAA!!!!\
Stop crying and be true to yourself DPK…there are just too many cops downtown…I know it, we know it and you still dont have a clue as to what is going on around you.
Helloooo…is anybody in there, DPK???
DPK06/15 05:14 PM
You are the last person that should be critiquing English, grammar, or sentence structure. That post was horrendous. Why do you care so much? Reread your own posts and you are basically doing the same exact thing you are preaching against.
News from our Shoes06/15 05:23 PM
I dont think so, friend….besides, I am not here for an SAT exam; which I could ace, but am here to make valid points regarding blog posts that rest on this site and if the hear is too much on you….DIP!
\it is not expected that someone here is standing with you toe to toe, besides, dont question my responses when yours are the ones which are the obvious problem…..\
PS…you are horrendous….and I did not copy and paste that word,...I was actually capable of spelling it myself and make it into a statement…..IMAGINE THAT
matt06/15 05:36 PM
If they want our respect and cooperation - and not just our fear - they should lose the frowns, sunglasses and stupid hats, stop talking among themselves in little groups and talk to US like they’re people and not machines, and quit glaring at everyone like they’re the biggest gang in town trying to 100-yard-stare everybody down. They should roll down their windows and stop paying so much attention to their little computers…come to think of it, get out of their armed, terrifyingly lit cocoon-cars and start being among us like regular humans. They should cultivate visible empathy, is all I’m saying. We’re NOT all criminals. I know they’re used to dealing with the “worst of the worst” but that doesn’t excuse looking for the worst in all of us. I think there should be term limits on the police, too. I don’t know why it developed into a lifetime career. They seem really unhappy. They’re underpaid and jaded, and I don’t know why someone would stay so long. I’m really curious about all of this, and hold no particular ill will toward them - I think most laws are just fine!
get off the sidewalk06/15 05:42 PM
my only beef with the downtown cops is that they’re constantly riding their bikes on the sidewalk. so are the raleigh ambassadors. it’d be so easy for them to increase cyclist visibility just by riding on the street—instead they ride on the sidewalk, don’t yield, and often almost hit pedestrians.
matt06/15 05:52 PM
Ha ha, sorry, I kept going. I’m way beyond the downtown cops now, clear out to the ‘burbs and cross-country. I’ll try to be more focused in my “critique”.
miamiblue06/15 08:13 PM
Wow, so police officers, who drive all day long and are outdoors a lot should not be allowed to wear sunglasses, frown when they’re thinking, or have discussions with their colleagues because some people are scaredy cats? I have had nothing but positive experiences with RPD officers, have never felt threatened by them during any interactions, and I live in downtown.
The people who are vehemently arguing that there are too many police officers patrolling downtown have not even acknowledged the fact that others have repeated pointed out: the police headquarters and fleet parking is downtown. When there is a shift change, officers must come down to drop off their cruisers for the next shift, so you will see higher concentrations of officers at certain times in the downtown vicinity for sure.
I have noticed a higher number officers patrolling my neighborhood lately, but I also know there has been a few incidents as of late that make me happy they are doing so. People have been going around to cars parked on the street and trying all the door handles, then stealing belongings from the unlucky person’s car who forgot to lock it. That’s not cool. Not to mention that a guy threatened to pull a gun on us on the R-Line the other night for absolutely no reason at all.
matt06/16 09:01 AM
miamiblue - I’m not here to argue with you or anyone, I’m here to say what I think and move on. I don’t appreciate you calling me a “scaredey-cat” but casting aspersions is the way of the weak-minded so I will cut you some slack. Oh. look, I did it myself. So sorry.
The system you describe regarding shift changes sounds both wasteful and ...stupid. Why is that how they do things? Why one central depot and not 4 quadrants or something? Any insight as to how this developed or if there’s change in the future?
Tell us the story of the R-line guy, I’m curious. And lock your cars, everybody.
miamiblue06/16 09:46 AM
@matt: I was not referring to you specifically as a scaredy cat, but rather addressing the comment you made, whether those were your own personal convictions or not. If you feel my comment was directed at you, I apologize for any hurt feelings. I still feel that anyone who is intimidated by a police officer dressed in uniform (and wearing sunglasses) simply doing his job is probably a little thin-skinned.
And I’d be happy to tell you the R-Line story. Email me at miami.blue on hotmail and I’ll give you the details. I am not going to go that far off-topic here out of respect for Kate’s article.DPK06/16 10:41 AM
You can also read miamiblue’s account of what happened here:
http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=50059&view=findpost&p=1073889
Sorry that happened to you, that’s pretty intense. What’s freaky is that I was out with some friends on Glenwood that same night as you and we were going to take the R-Line but decided to walk instead. We were standing beside the bus debating about it and ended up not. Could have happened to us too.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d still take the R-Line at any chance (go public transportation!), it’s just that we decided it was too nice a night to not walk. We also had some friends visiting from out of town so we wanted to be able to stop and do more of a “walking tour” of the area so we could pop into any bars/clubs at will. :-Dblzbub06/16 10:48 AM
News from our Shoes is obviously a homeless person.
marie06/16 11:20 AM
This whole crazy argument is completely ridiculous. The fact of the matter IS that the courthouse, the public safety center (which houses the jail & the Sheriffs dept), central prison, the jail annex, Raleigh Police Department headquarters, and the State Capital Police are all centrally located downtown. Because of this, there will always be a higher police presence in this area. Many officers are in transition at any given time from the jail or courthouse back to their respective districts all throughout Raleigh.
On a sidenote, it saddens me that so many people feel the need to bash RPD the way they have on this forum. As the wife of an RPD officer, I watch my husband leave every day/night (depending on shifts) praying that there is not a knock at my door or a phone call from someone on his squad at any given hour. Many are unaware and take for granted the sacrifices they make day in and day out just to keep you safe. It amazes me how most people bash law enforcement, until it comes time that they actually need the assistance from one. Unless you are in their shoes, you have no idea the kind of crime and violence that goes on in Raleigh. The media is not privy to everything that Raleigh endures, so in return, neither are you. You might be jaded at times too, if this was something you dealt with on a daily basis. Still, each officer is aware of this task from the day they graduate the academy, and yet still choose to protect and serve the City of Raleigh and its people.
Anyone at any point in time is welcome to do a ride-along with a Raleigh police officer. That way you can see for yourself the kind of stuff that goes on that nobody ever hears about. It may offer some wisdom and perspective to those that risk their lives daily to protect yours.
I saw this on a post, and thought it may provide some insight.
A Cop On the Take
First he takes…the oath. Here’s what else he takes:
He takes…it in stride when people call him “pig.”
He takes…his low paycheck, realizing he’ll never be rich.
He takes…a second job sometimes to make ends meet and support his family.
He takes…time to stop and talk to children.
He takes…your verbal abuse while giving you a ticket you really deserved.
He takes…on creeps you would be afraid to even look at.
He takes…time away from his family to keep you safe.
He takes…your injured child to the hospital.
He takes…the graveyard shift without complaint because it’s his turn.
He takes…time to explain why both your headlights have to work.
He takes…criminals to jail.
He takes…in sights that would make you cry. Sometimes he cries too, but he takes it anyway because someone has to.
He takes…time to explain to his family why he can’t make the ball game his child is in, and why he has to work on the holiday when other parents are off.
He takes…his life into his hands daily.
Sometimes…he takes a bullet.
And if he’s lucky…he takes retirement.Kindly, I would hope that the people on this forum would be respectful enough to not retort with any sort of uglyness. My intention is not too bash anyone’s opinions, but just to offer some perspective.
News from our Shoes06/16 01:41 PM
@bizbub…why i it obviouus that I am a homeless person???
Isn’t it possible that I am your everyday average ““Joe?”
Interesting….
Let me guess…you got that ESPN, thing going on, right?
matt06/16 01:41 PM
Marie, I mean no ugliness to anyone. I may take the police up on the offer of a ride-along. Why IS the media shut out from things that would help us better understand what’s going on in our town? Who shuts them out? I ask in all seriousness! Not that the media’s any great shakes around here either, mind you. And thanks for clarifying what, exactly, IS downtown.
miamiblue, I feel for what happened to you too. It sounds like no one called the police, though! Is there more to your anecdote? I ride the “R” frequently; is just putting someone who does such a thing off the bus standard policy?
matt06/16 01:45 PM
And you, News from our shoes, have said repeatedly, in many posts here on Newraleigh, that you’re homeless. Are you now NOT homeless? It sounds like a pretty “obvious” thing, given that you said it yourself. Do you want me to fish for quotes?
News from our Shoes06/16 01:52 PM
Matt:
I never denied that I am homeless,because I most certainly am…but if you know that I have stated I am, them why question it?
Whether you did or “BIZBUB” why question it if I have already stated it?
Seems redundant….
matt06/16 02:31 PM
I stated it because you asked why it was obvious. It’s obvious because you said you were.
Q.E.D., man.
Maybe Bizbub is a newcomer and hasn’t read you before.
News from our Shoes06/16 02:39 PM
Well, matt…I am glad you read me….I am flattered, but yeah…for the record…I am homeless and am not proud of it, but must face the reality of it,because it will not be this way always.
I still say that there far too many cops patrolling the downtown area…it adds up to an unnecessary expense that could be used to help provide more affordable housing to get the homeless of the street and/or end homelessness once and for all.
matt06/16 03:07 PM
I hope things get better for you, News. Capitalism is a scourge that is strangling us all, and consensus-reality that says money is “worth” something doesn’t help either.
If we could all get it through our heads that there’s no gold or anything else backing it up, it would be good for all of us.Anton06/16 03:19 PM
Maybe we could get the change-of-shifts venue relocated to Avent Ferry Road near Centennial campus. I sure wouldn’t mind seeing some extra police down there.
Although I have only been in town for just less than a year, it seems the RPD do an excellent job and they seem very professional compared to other cities I have lived in, and this is coming from a paranoid hippy-type person. Haha!
Seriously though, I am very grateful for their service to our city. If you serve on the force and you happen to spot me in a bar, hit me up for a few free brews.
Jess06/17 11:03 AM
I’ve never had a bad run in with a cop…I live downtown and I don’t mind seeing them…they are only doing their job…
:o)
jessica01/16 06:14 AM
i was scared away from my work. i have 9 or 6 holes in my dresser draw. people are harrasing me they are trying to set me up is this illegal. they are trying to kill me. i need help my family doesnt care please i just want them to leave me and my family alone.
is this illeal help me…....... they want to send me away for ever am 20
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